CAS transits: mithical or real?

[smithgd]

I'm a PPL/IMC er with about 4 years flying under my belt, but for some reason I have this preconceved idea that CAS is a no go zone in this country, is it true?

I did my training in LA so I am used to USA CAS and have no problems there. However ever since then in the UK I have not ventured in CAS for "fear" of rejection and being told to "remain clear" and go the long way round. So I fingure I'll save time and go the long way round from the start

I think one problem I have is when I plan a route I don't know what clearance I can hope for when in CAS. For example Rochester direct to Exeter, doing through Gatwick CTR/CTA, can I get an overhead transit or would I be kept to the edges? Likewise if I go North I have to transit Luton/Sansted, how do I plan that if I don't know what I'll get?

Hope you can help, cheers

smithgd

[radar707]

If you don't ask, you'll never know!!

If you listen to the frequency and it sounds like the controller is having a busy old time of it, then maybe it would be better to route the long way round, but then again, we may well be able to identify you, give you a clearance and transit you through cas, descending IFR traffic on top.

We'll always do our best to provide you with the best service we can, so just ask and you'll probably find that you shall receive

[Fred]

This should probably be in Private Flying but here is the situation:

Class A: airways, CTAs and TMAs are IFR only: as a PPL/IMC you may not accept a clearance to enter. There are two class A CTRs: LHR and Channel Islands. You may accept a SVFR clearnace to enter these. However generally do not bother to trouble Heathrow unless your route is cutting a corner and is well away from the runways. Various low-alititude routings are possible depending on which runways are in use for arrivals/departures etc. For MEP various more flexible clearances may be offered. As an IMC holder you may accept a SVFR clearance in vis down to 3km.

Class D: Almost all of this is easily available for transit by a simple R/T transmission in standard format (see cap 413) which should be at least 10nm or 5mins(?) from the boundary, whichever is the earlier. However in some cases, although you would legally be entitled to a transit clearance, it is unlikely to be given due to controller workload and I would never plan a flight through these zones. They are:-

Gatwick and Sanstead CTAs/CTRs - not really feasible - they are extremely busy.

Manchester CTR: likewise. However the lower class D portion of the CTA to the east is fine. Don't forget you also have the LLR.

Luton CTA/CTR - usually too busy but worth asking.

Birmingham CTA/CTR: also unlikely.

Class E: Strictly speaking VFR flights don't even need ATC clearance to enter and radio is not mandatory. However contacting the appropriate controlling frequency would be extremely sensible.

Hope that helps.

[Go-arounder]

Sunny Newcastle

Don’t bother going to Exeter come and visit Newcastle, zone clearance to land or transit no-problem, again if the controller going like a one paper hangar you may have to hold but holding over the Bridges has some of the best views you will see any where!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

You shouldn't have any trouble going through the London CTZ...... now I've gone!!!!

[foghorn]

Here are my experiences for CTR crossing under IFR and VFR, and for good measure services offered outside controlled airspace (ATSOCA). Note this is my experience and therefore not the official word on the matter. Most of this concurs with what other posters have said:

Stansted (Essex Radar)
VFR crosser - forget it, too busy
IFR crosser - forget it, too busy
ATSOCA - forget it, too busy

Luton
VFR crosser - usually no problem
IFR crosser - will try to fit you in, workload permitting
ATSOCA - will try their best, workload permitting

City (Thames Radar)
VFR crosser - usually no problem unless too busy
ATSOCA - often too busy unless City closed (the exception being EGKB IFR traffic)

Gatwick
Forget it, too busy

Heathrow (SVFR 119.9)
SVFR only on certain routings, will provide basic ATSOCA if you're operating near the zone boundary

Southampton (Solent Radar)
All - usually no problem

Of all the northern CTRs, all seem to welcome VFR/IFR crossers and provide ATSOCA, with the exception of Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool, the former two due to traffic, the latter I have no knowledge why.

cheers!
foggy.

[smithgd]

Thanks for your replies...it would seem I was right!

Since I am based in the South East I am pretty much shafted I can go through Newcastle (Thanks) but I can't get there as the crow intended, instead I have to go via Cambridge!

My main concern is the London Area since most of my destinations are North or West of me, whilst on a good VFR day I can thread my way through the gaps what do I do if I hit IMC? Ideally i'd like to go direct, but from what you guys have just said i don't stand a chance

thanks

smithgd

[Hooligan Bill]

foghorn wrote,

Of all the northern CTRs, all seem to welcome VFR/IFR crossers and provide ATSOCA, with the exception of Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool, the former two due to traffic, the latter I have no knowledge why.

Evidently then all the transits I have worked across the Liverpool Zone must be a figment of my imagination. Remind me to visit the doctors in the new year.

[foghorn]

Hooligan, apologies, I meant to prefix the comment about Liverpool with the words 'I have heard'. What I have heard about Liverpool must be complete bollox then :o

smithgd I'm Biggin-based and fly IFR northwards regularly off airways - if I'm going east I'll route via CLN and cut the corner once clear of EGSS, step climbing underneath the TMA up to about FL65 or 85 and then talking to the USAF/RAF stations in the East.
If I'm going west I'll thread through the gap between the EGLL/EGKK CTRs at 2,400ft by routing BIG-OCK, and head north once clear to the west - Thames Radar and Farnboro' Radar will usually give you a service if IFR, occasionally you also get to work Heathrow Special. It's often best to try to stay a bit south of OCK if you can (RNAV or GPS helps here), as OCK is a bit close to the EGLL CTR boundary for comfort.

Hope this helps.

cheers!
foggy.

[flower]

The other item to add to CTR crossers is be prepared to accept an alternative altitude /level. If you are able to do so and still remain VFR you are more likely to be given a crossing clearance.

If you are not given a crossing clearance once through a zone it may simply be because at that moment they are unable to accept you. that does not preclude you on another occasion from trying to obtain one.

[cossack]

I don't recall the last zone transit I refused across the Manchester zone. They all may not have got their requested route or level every time and were probably vectored at some stage to avoid the departure routes or the missed approach areas, but you can always ask, you might be pleasantly surprised.

If it sounds real busy, best just go around the eastern edge or use the Low level Route. If you have an alternative routing (or two!) planned you won't be caught out.

flower
Well said.

Merry Christmas to all

[Beethoven]

Seem to be very different views of Manchester zone transits depending on who you speak to.I have never tried one,sticking as I normally do to the LLR but some pilots I have spoken to say there is usually no problem whilst others say that there no chance at all and not to bother...certainly I have never heard MAN be anything other than helpful and courteous to GA so I do wonder where this reputation for fearsome-ness comes from.
Beet

[ATCO Two]

Smithgd,

Going back to your original post, and your routeing from Rochester to Exeter through the Gatwick CTR/CTA. I don't have my maps available, but let's think this through logically. I would imagine that your supposed flight would transit the length of the Gatwick CTA/CTR from East to West. If Gatwick are on Westerlies, you would enter the CTA not above 2400 ft VFR and be traffic to EVERYTHING on the ILS. All the IFR traffic would be getting TCAS alerts and the Controller would have to pass traffic information to each and every aircraft! Then you transit the Gatwick overhead and now you are traffic to all their departures! Departures would have to stop and you would also have to be protected from go-arounds. The reverse would apply if Gatwick were on Easterlies.

I'm not sure of the speed you fly, but all this carnage would last for at least ten minutes whilst you transited the airspace. Do you really think that your direct routeing from EGTO to EGTE is worth all that extra workload to the Controllers and pilots, not to mention the extra costs in wasted fuel and delays, just to save you a few quid? Listen to foghorn, he talks a lot of sense.

[SATCO Biggin]

ATCO Two

I remember the days (1970's and 80's) when transitting Gatwick was always ok, except when a certain watch was on duty but we wont go into that. A routing overhead the landing threshold was normally given and always seemed to work out alright.

Then for some reason the overhead option was written out of their procedures....pity.

Now I just drop down to 1400 QNH and skirt around the edge of the CTR and under the CTA and do not talk to them.

I also seem to remember many years ago a MATS Part 1 Supplementary Instruction that basically said if you have the benefit of controlled airspace around you then you have a responsibility to assist pilots in remaining clear of it or letting them through it. Nowadays you are lucky to get even an acknowledgment out of Gatwick.

...or maybe I have been in this job too long...!
Regards

TMC

[PPRuNe Radar]

This thread accords pretty much with the reports from the CAA Directorate of Airspace Policy which was put to the aviation community at the last NATMAC Meeting.

That is, that there is a perception amongst the GA users that a high proportion of requested transits of Class D airspace are refused. NATS provide the CAA with details on all refusals by way of information from Flight Progress strips (legal documents of course). The CAA have to date found very very little evidence of refusals and the GA community when pressed are unable to provide the where and when information which would back up their claims. It all seems to boil down to a 'bloke I know in the pub had a clearance refused' or 'happened to me 6 weeks ago but I can't remember the details' kind of thing.

I am not for one minute saying that transist are never refused. They WILL be for operational reasons on an individual basis. However, for the pilots out there, if there is a serious problem, then why not provide DAP with the evidence so that they can then investigate things with NATS ??? Evidence which can be checked, rather than perceptions or hearsay.

[Evil J]

From personal experience as a radar controller looking after class D its pilots requesting unrealistic routes-straight through the climb out at 2000 ft during the outbound rush, or vice versa the inbound rush that seems to cause the problem. I have never refused a transit but if there is other traffic around it is unlikely that the transit traffic is going to get straight through as requested. After all if all the transiters can get through in this manner should there be CAS there in the first place-as ATCO's we only look after the airspace; it isn't OURS!

My advise to pilots looking to transit-and also what I do when I fly is to plan 2 routes; one through CAS and one to remain clear. It may also be worth ringing the ATC unit in question and politely asking the best route to transit on the day you intend to fly-it can't hurt and certainly at my unit we would be only too please to give some advise- it will mean less work for us in the end!!!

Now where is my pay rise....

[Flybywyre]

NATS provide the CAA with details on all refusals by way of information from Flight Progress strips (legal documents of course).

That's interesting..........
The only flight strips that I am aware of being collected for the CAA are on the Essex sector....and they are only the hand written pink strips.
Do Solent and HH also save their strips for the CAA?
Presumably all these strips would be marked as "refused" somewhere on them so as to collate the information.
Regards
FBW