individual rosters
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eyeinthesky- its and not ans! But point taken.
Also I did state that I have no childcare issues so some of the vitriole perhaps would have been better aimed elsewhere!
As for 100k families being able to employ nannies,I agree in theory but I believe it is not very easy to get them to work night shifts anyway so these people would still have to work spins.
BUT you have missed the point NATS has an obligation to employ adequate staff to allow people to make lifestyle choices so let's get working on that rather than forcing people who have taken just as long to train as yourself out of the industry.
When people join NATS at 20-21 years of age they DON'T know wether they want kids or not. So people must opt wether to marry someone who is happy to give up their career to look after children or not have children, this would appear to be the logical conclusion of your argument.
I for one know which I'd prefer.
Look beyond the next five years and decide what sort of atmosphere we all want to work in. A contented one where all of your workmates are happy(well most maybe) or a discontented ,resentful one which is the way we seem to be now.
Also I did state that I have no childcare issues so some of the vitriole perhaps would have been better aimed elsewhere!
As for 100k families being able to employ nannies,I agree in theory but I believe it is not very easy to get them to work night shifts anyway so these people would still have to work spins.
BUT you have missed the point NATS has an obligation to employ adequate staff to allow people to make lifestyle choices so let's get working on that rather than forcing people who have taken just as long to train as yourself out of the industry.
When people join NATS at 20-21 years of age they DON'T know wether they want kids or not. So people must opt wether to marry someone who is happy to give up their career to look after children or not have children, this would appear to be the logical conclusion of your argument.
I for one know which I'd prefer.
Look beyond the next five years and decide what sort of atmosphere we all want to work in. A contented one where all of your workmates are happy(well most maybe) or a discontented ,resentful one which is the way we seem to be now.
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Yep you're right. But what about the contentment of the majority??
Let's go for one that is fair to ALL and doesn't involve many people working additional nights to allow 2 ATCO families to arrive at work in their Porches from their houses with the swimming pools. These people are big enough and rich enough to have a lifestyle that doesn't impinge on the lifestyle of others.
I really hope this situation gets resolved quickly or there will be a flood of staff going part-time and it will have nothing to do with childcare-and then what sort of a mess will we be in?
Yes, circumstances do change but staff have to be aware that decisions they make will have some impact on their lives and not rely on NATS to persecute others to make it all work.
Let's go for one that is fair to ALL and doesn't involve many people working additional nights to allow 2 ATCO families to arrive at work in their Porches from their houses with the swimming pools. These people are big enough and rich enough to have a lifestyle that doesn't impinge on the lifestyle of others.
I really hope this situation gets resolved quickly or there will be a flood of staff going part-time and it will have nothing to do with childcare-and then what sort of a mess will we be in?
Yes, circumstances do change but staff have to be aware that decisions they make will have some impact on their lives and not rely on NATS to persecute others to make it all work.
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can we move away from berating two atco families(my other half is not an ATCO but earns far more than I) and back to the issue of individual or flexible rosters. As a fairly new member of pprune I am dismayed at what a narrow minded bunch we come across as(especially nerc bods). Other units seem much more capable of seeing the bigger picture and other peoples/units problems.
Also the only two ATCO family that I know with a swimming pool and had a porsche(sorry jon) both work nights, he permanent and she more than half the time so perhaps one of you single types could take over his permanent nights. Lets not judge other people too readily
Also the only two ATCO family that I know with a swimming pool and had a porsche(sorry jon) both work nights, he permanent and she more than half the time so perhaps one of you single types could take over his permanent nights. Lets not judge other people too readily
Last edited by bwatchbabe; 16th Dec 2002 at 13:55.
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bwatchbabe,
As you're pulling up people for their spelling let's get THIS one right once and for all.
IT'S with an apostrophe, means IT IS. The apostrophe denotes a missing letter, in this case "I".
ITS with NO apostrophe, is the possessive pronoun meaning "belonging to it." Same group as HIS, HERS, THEIRS etc.
Do you see any apostrophes in those words? No.
(The confusion between "its" and "it's" arises from when there is a proper noun involved and then we get John's book, Peter's car etc.)
A similar case is my (non) favourite - YOU'RE and YOUR, where YOU'RE = YOU ARE, and YOUR means belonging to YOU. Same principle. YOUR is cropping up more and more to mean "YOU ARE" and is extremely sloppy English!
Got that everybody??
GOOD!
THANK'S (JOKE!!)
ATCO TWO
Fully paid up member of AAAA
Association for the Abolition of the Aberrant Apostrophe
As you're pulling up people for their spelling let's get THIS one right once and for all.
IT'S with an apostrophe, means IT IS. The apostrophe denotes a missing letter, in this case "I".
ITS with NO apostrophe, is the possessive pronoun meaning "belonging to it." Same group as HIS, HERS, THEIRS etc.
Do you see any apostrophes in those words? No.
(The confusion between "its" and "it's" arises from when there is a proper noun involved and then we get John's book, Peter's car etc.)
A similar case is my (non) favourite - YOU'RE and YOUR, where YOU'RE = YOU ARE, and YOUR means belonging to YOU. Same principle. YOUR is cropping up more and more to mean "YOU ARE" and is extremely sloppy English!
Got that everybody??
GOOD!
THANK'S (JOKE!!)
ATCO TWO
Fully paid up member of AAAA
Association for the Abolition of the Aberrant Apostrophe
More than just an ATCO
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Against this at Maastricht as well. Shift Logic has been binned here and it is up to the supervisors to "adjust" duties to ensure the minmum staffing levels are met. There are fortunately a number of restraints e.g no change from morning to afternoon, or vice versa without the consent of the controller involved.
From what i remember the guys at Amsterdam work an individual roster, there are acouple in Bournemouth next week on the CLN Sim. Talk to them about it.
Lon More - more than just an ATCO
From what i remember the guys at Amsterdam work an individual roster, there are acouple in Bournemouth next week on the CLN Sim. Talk to them about it.
Lon More - more than just an ATCO
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ATCO Two: Hooray! A fellow campaigner. Where can I join AAAA?!
By the way, whilst we're on the subject, the plural of ATCO is not ATCO's. Strictly, as it is an acronym, it is ATCO as the O could be Officer or Officers. But for clarity ATCOs will do.
Why does virtually everybody these days seem to think that plurals have to have apostrophes?
How's this for an example:
Quote
Dear Santa..............
I have been really really nice to the boys and girls in ATC and the CFMU this year,helping them out with re-routes to help free up there sector's when they need it for the big boy's to come through.
So this christmas i would like :-
1) a day of NO atc slot's due to lack of staff.
2) NO closure of sector's due to the above and capacity..
3) a day of NO level capping scenarios.
4) a day of NO zero flow rates through the sector's.
well santa i dont know if you will be able to grant this request - i expect my dream will only come true on one day and that's Christmas day - which is a real ****** as we arnt operating christmas day !!!!! oh well here's to dreaming..........
Happy christmas and all the best to you guy's in ATC - have a good one.
Unquote
P.S. BWB: The 'you' in my previous post was generic rather than specific. It was not targeted at you, so should more correctly have been 'one' (as the Royals are famous for saying).
By the way, whilst we're on the subject, the plural of ATCO is not ATCO's. Strictly, as it is an acronym, it is ATCO as the O could be Officer or Officers. But for clarity ATCOs will do.
Why does virtually everybody these days seem to think that plurals have to have apostrophes?
How's this for an example:Quote
Dear Santa..............
I have been really really nice to the boys and girls in ATC and the CFMU this year,helping them out with re-routes to help free up there sector's when they need it for the big boy's to come through.
So this christmas i would like :-
1) a day of NO atc slot's due to lack of staff.
2) NO closure of sector's due to the above and capacity..
3) a day of NO level capping scenarios.
4) a day of NO zero flow rates through the sector's.
well santa i dont know if you will be able to grant this request - i expect my dream will only come true on one day and that's Christmas day - which is a real ****** as we arnt operating christmas day !!!!! oh well here's to dreaming..........
Happy christmas and all the best to you guy's in ATC - have a good one.
Unquote
P.S. BWB: The 'you' in my previous post was generic rather than specific. It was not targeted at you, so should more correctly have been 'one' (as the Royals are famous for saying).
Last edited by eyeinthesky; 17th Dec 2002 at 08:44.
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Aberrant Apostrophes
ATCO TWO
Well said! How good it is to meet a fellow AAAA member in NATS. I was beginning to think that my watch manager and I - both committed activists - were the only two in the company. That's two of my bętes noires dealt with in one go - thank you.
eyeinthesky
Welcome to the club. I now see you in an entirely new light - I'll even forgive you for your crack about LASs and gorillas!
You just beat me to it with your post about the misuse of apostrophes in simple plurals but have you noticed how the same people who put them in when they’re not needed, frequently omit them when they are required?
To take an example from this thread: “…other peoples/units problems.” Surely that should be, "other people’s/units’ problems."? Unless, of course the writer was using "peoples" in the sense of the members of particular nations in which case it should be "other peoples'/units' problems".
NB
AAAA Activist
Well said! How good it is to meet a fellow AAAA member in NATS. I was beginning to think that my watch manager and I - both committed activists - were the only two in the company. That's two of my bętes noires dealt with in one go - thank you.
eyeinthesky
Welcome to the club. I now see you in an entirely new light - I'll even forgive you for your crack about LASs and gorillas!
You just beat me to it with your post about the misuse of apostrophes in simple plurals but have you noticed how the same people who put them in when they’re not needed, frequently omit them when they are required? To take an example from this thread: “…other peoples/units problems.” Surely that should be, "other people’s/units’ problems."? Unless, of course the writer was using "peoples" in the sense of the members of particular nations in which case it should be "other peoples'/units' problems".
NB
AAAA Activist
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goodbye to you all. This is my last post on pprune as I realise I live in a different universe from you all. I hope you are all at least fifty otherwise you are a very,very sad bunch of people.
No point in posting any witty replies to this post as I won't be reading them
No point in posting any witty replies to this post as I won't be reading them
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Any attempt at individual rosters that I have made in the past has always resulted in someone feeling that they are being put at a disadvantage due to someone else's [I'm getting paranoid about punctuation now] lifestyle/childcare/retail circumstances. The resultant fallout is however not usually directed at the roster maker, but rather at the poor unfortunate who is seen as the "cause" of the inequality, real or percieved. So any gain that person recieves through the individual roster is negated by the inability of all concerned to see the whole picture. Petty sniping and outright bully tactics ensue, and then harmony and peace become a thing of the past. I support any attempt by anyone to adapt the working day of people who find themselves with commitments that conflict with their working day [or night]. Alas human nature usually acts to protect its own interests if it feels threatened, and thus any percieved inequality will start to erode work-force relations to the extent that seemingly small issues escalate into outright conflict. My response now to requests for flexibility is far less accomodating now than it was prior to attempting individual rosters, which is a loss to all concerned. Usual story of everyone losing a useful or helpful initiative due to the obstinacy or inflexibility of a small minority.
Was that the sound of BWB's toys hitting the shag-pile again? Shame really as we all enjoyed her humourous postings about CATC. As I said about feeling threatened....
Edited for punctuation.
Was that the sound of BWB's toys hitting the shag-pile again? Shame really as we all enjoyed her humourous postings about CATC. As I said about feeling threatened....
Edited for punctuation.
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While we're on the subject of p*ss poor grammar (by and large originating from the fourth floor), does anyone wish to join me in my crusade against exorbitant use of the word 'literally'?
Whilst speaking to a fourth floor bod the other day, I counted 27 individual uses of this word in a 5 minute conversation. He was 'literally' doing everything; and here was me thinking he was merely talking in metaphors.
Dig deep, and with your help we can stamp out this dreadful affliction.
(See also: compulsive use of 'actually')
C U Jimmy
Whilst speaking to a fourth floor bod the other day, I counted 27 individual uses of this word in a 5 minute conversation. He was 'literally' doing everything; and here was me thinking he was merely talking in metaphors.
Dig deep, and with your help we can stamp out this dreadful affliction.
(See also: compulsive use of 'actually')
C U Jimmy
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On the aircrew page there is an article from the Economist newspaper which would have a bearing on staff who have individual rosters, more so than those of us who have a stable roster. The article refers to problems arising from sleep deprevation, sleep disturbance and lack of "quality" sleep, all of which I am sure would be exacerbated if we were subject to an individual roster.
Sorry I dont have the computer "knowhow" to transfer it to the ATC web!
Sorry I dont have the computer "knowhow" to transfer it to the ATC web!
