BARCO Screens

[BEXIL160]

Dear all,

A few questions which I'd like to know the answers to:


1) What is the screen refresh rate for the BARCO colour screens?

2) Are they in use in any operational ATC environment (Area or APP)?

3) Are there any alternatives currently available, and in use in any operational facility?

Thanks...

Oh, why am I asking?

Well, it seems that the issue of the refresh rate of the tubes at LACC Swanwick has reached the local press.

For those that don't know, the screens at Swanwick refresh at 60hz. The Display screen Equipment regulations (1992) specify a MINIMUM rate of 70hz, and recommend not less than 75hz. Not really very surprising that users (ATCOs and ATSAs) have reported an increase in the number of headaches, directly attributable to the screens. (Long term effects? Unknown, apparently)

Anyway, the local paper (Portsmouth News 4/12/02) has managed to get a quote from one Richard Wright (who?) "spokesman for NATS" which goes like this:

... the screens low refresh rate was fixed by the frequency of the power supply and the next generation of radars (sic) which use non-flickering flat screens, [/B] were still another 10 years away[B]

The system is in widespread use around the world and there really isn't a system currently under development that doesn't use this refresh rate

Now, a final question. Is this "NATS spokesman" talking complete B*LL*CKS and if so why?

Answers anyone?

Rgds BEX

[Manu Forte]

Sorry, can't give you the technical stuff, but BHX have used Barco's for a couple of years now. Try giving the engineers there a ring for the refresh rate.

[Patrick Bateman]

60Hz sounds very low for such a large screen.

I have a 19inch monitor at home and the refresh rate I use is 100Hz.

If I change it to 60Hz the picture is very much harder on the eyes and does get a noticable flicker.

70Hz shows a big improvement but flicker is still visible particularly when not staring at the screen i.e keyboard.

A TFT monitor needs a lower refresh rate to look stable - about 72Hz.

The refresh rate is set by the Graphics Adapter however this is also dependent on what the monitor is capable of. Too high a refresh rate for a long period could result in damage.

Never ever heard of the power supply having anything to do with it!

You could always e-mail Barco themselves:

[email protected]

[A I]

So the frequency of the update is fixed by the power supply is it Mr Wright? (He's a OKS press office chap btw) Well, I seem to remember that the frequency of the UK National Grid is 50Hz. Maybe Swanwick runs on generators at 60Hz with back up from the Grid, but I think not.

Yes, you've guessed it, NATS is talking b******s again. I think that the problem is that the displays were ordered before the health and safety requirements were laid down. This problem is serious. The well being of NATS only tangible asset (the staff) is being compromised by an appallingly substandard work environment. We have only been at the dome for ten months but I suspect that the results of poor ergonomic design will be with us all for many years.

AI

[Spitoon]

No doubt Engineers will correct me if I'm wrong but the bigger the display the lower the refresh rate tends to be.

Bigger screen area takes longer to scan and so increased refresh rates cost correspondingly more to achieve.

[WhatWasThat]

We have been trialling BARCO screens here in OZ for several months. I cannot speak for my colleagues but I find them an improvement on the sony screens we had previously. I have not personally experienced any headache or eyestrain over and above what is usual.

[almost professional]

just spoken to our tels-the displays are capable of 46hz to 120hz, but pick up on what the scan converter pushes out which is 50hz in our case
we dont find them a problem at all, however a new display system is on trial at this time, supposedly one of the reasons is we can no longer get spares for the barco displays!

[spekesoftly]

We've used Barco colour monitors at our ATC(APR) unit for many years (10+), and I've never once heard a complaint about refresh rates, or headaches.(Not 'monitor induced', anyway!!) Generally well liked, good definition, and a pleasure to use.

I'll check out the spec. when I can, and post again.

[Lost_luggage34]

For the NERC guys & gals here - do you really have to sit in front of those things at a 60Hz refresh rate ??

That is an instant equation for eyestrain and headaches.

Technology has evolved enormously since the original large gas plasma screens were first introduced. I used and installed some of the first available almost 10 years ago - extremely expensive and very hot in operation.

The newer kit is cooler running and getting clearer with the LCD technology. But then NERC is probably (I am not in the know) realistically operating with fairly old technology albeit well proven.

BARCO's to my knowledge have been used in US ATC for quite some years. The refresh rate has absolutely nothing to do with the power supply frequency.

[zed3]

In the newly (2nd November) opened Eurocontrol Maastricht Ops Room all the Sony screens -over 100- are being replaced already by Barco screens which are much clearer. The cost I believe is 100,000 euros each!!! Don't know any tech details.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks to all for the answers (and for any other info / opinions)

Yes, we do indeed HAVE to sit in front of those 60Hz refresh rate screens at LACC Swanwick, and yes headaches are a problem.

Several points here:

1) No one knows the long term effects of exposure to "flicker". I can't imagine that it is good though.

2) Other, better, systems are available right now. Which make the "NATS Spokesman" either ill informed, or less than economical with the truth. He should be made to answer for his errors, deliberate or otherwise.

3) Despite what it says, and is required by law to do, NATS is not "ensuring the well being of its employees". Replacement of the screens in use at LACC Swanwick must be done as a matter of urgency .

It seems to me that the small matter of my, and my colleagues, health, is being IGNORED by NATS, possibly on cost grounds. How much is our long term health worth?

NATS Knows there is a problem. Can anyone tell me what it is doing about it? Internal communications are DIRE as is common knowledge.

tks

Rgds BEX

[Llamapoo]

Does this mean that the results of the working group on fonts and colours, etc. at Swanwick have not been made public? I would have expected that, in the face of such strong sentiments, the group would have circulated the options it considered and the reasons for and against them.

I know that the Human Factors Unit at ATMDC have been assertively 'educating' some of the members of the working group for a while now, and as a consequence NATS (including Everitt) knows EXACTLY what can and can't be done with the existing equipment. NATS also knows what the ideal solution is (if any such thing as an 'ideal solution' is possible).

Let's hope that projects such as FACTS and EPS do not suffer any unreasonable constraints/interference from those trying to cover their backsides, and are allowed to specify a system from both the software AND the hardware points of view.

[BDiONU]

llamapoo

After much wasted money and effort EPS has rightly been consigned to the dustbin. iFACTS is slowly grinding its way through simulation, but is a LONG way from providing anything useful. Other than highlighting the fact (again) that we really need more realistic Trajectory Prediction software.

Colours & fonts WG contained union reps and watch reps, so nothing attempting to be hidden there. Although I can assure you that my senior manager would NEVER condone any attempt to hide anything.

[Buster the Bear]

Used them for a while at a north London airport, they were brilliant, resolution superb compared to those used in a terminal control centre close to London. They could be in use now at an airport-on-sea close to Southend?

Technology is 10 years on.

Bet there is even better availalble now? they look like home televisions in dimension.

[garp]

Nice to read that you guys don't only appreciate our beer and chocolates but also our screens. It has to be said that they're probably the best the industry can offer for the time being.

[Scott Voigt]

Hi BEX;

We have two sites up and running on the BARCO ISIS displays right now. They are knocking off for the holidays but we will start up again in January with another install starting in Denver. We will do one facility a month as long as everything goes well.

Here's a press release from BARCO

BARCO is Awarded 16 Million USD Order to Supply ISIS Flat Panel LCD Main Display for US FAA Enroute Centers

ATCA, Washington, DC, USA, 7 November 02 BarcoView has received a 16 million USD order against a 51 million USD contract from Lockheed Martin ATM for the delivery of ISIS 2K x 2K flat panel displays as part of the US FAA Console Reconfiguration and MDM Replacement Program.

The ISIS panels will replace the Sony DDM displays in the US FAA enroute centers that have reached end of service life. BarcoView has been chosen by Lockheed Martin ATM to supply the 2K x 2K ISIS 28” diagonal square LCD main display panels because of their high optical quality and functional compatibility with the existing Sony DDM displays. Barco’s ISIS flat panel main display is the obvious choice because of its high image quality, low lifecycle cost and compatibility with the worldwide de facto ATC standard 20” x 20” square format at 2048 x 2048 resolution.

Moreover, the four mega-pixel ISIS flat panel main display can easily be integrated into both new and existing Controller Working Positions because of its small mechanical form factor.
br>Lockheed Martin ATM has installed the first delivery of ISIS flat panels at the Seattle, Washington air traffic control center. Salt Lake City, Utah and Denver, Colorado are currently in progress. BarcoView’s advanced ergonomic visualization solution will allow operators to display high-quality 2048 x 2048 high resolution images, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

This award represents the first large order of the ISIS display by the FAA and represents over nine months of testing and evaluation of the ISIS by Lockheed Martin ATM and the FAA. Barco will deliver this initial order over a one-year period and fulfill the remaining contractual deliveries by 2004.


There is also a web site that you can go to to get some more info on the screens...

http://www.barcoview.com/Download/ISIS%20Brochure.pdf

The BARCO screen looked great at the convention, but with the production model we ran into problems and had to have BARCO make some changes to the units to make them acceptable. As to the refresh rate. That is going to be determined not just by the monitor, but also the equipment driving the monitor. The bad news for us is that we are just replacing the display and not all the video driving equipment that runs it. That will come at a later date when we can afford it. In fact, the assistant position (D-side) will go through a technical refresh (new equipment) prior to the radar position due to the limitations that we are running into already with our new conflict probe equipment and other things that we want to add...

It appears that most of the issues that were left outstanding had to do with sites that kept the control room darker than some other sites. So they are working on the light leakage and I believe have that fixed. They are also working on being able to have more flexibility on changing more of the video settings from how we have them set now... Time will tell... We should start putting them in here at ZFW around the June time frame along with the URET conflict probe. Would probably be a good time for you to make a trip <G>... Well probably the fall would be better. We would have everything up and running, and the roads wouldn't be at melting temps <G>. I would hate to see a UK native melting away in front of me <BG>...

regards

[BEXIL160]

Thanks for all that Scott, all very useful and hopefully appearing on some Managers desk in the not too distant future!

Yes, the Fonts have been tweaked "a little", and are certainly an improvement over what NATS were still defending as "acceptable" when Swanwick opened earlier this year, despite having been repeatedly told during OCT that they were not acceptable. (I still have a copy of the e-mail encouraging OCT managers "not to mention display screen fonts" - they had been made bold, not changed as requested).

No, the point here is that the flicker of the screens at Swanwick is also not acceptable. At 60Hz they do not meet HSE DSE standards, and are a health hazard, long term exposure to which is UNKNOWN.

The suites at Swanwick are curved (Bananas), so sitting in the TAC position, your peripheral vision is also effected by the displays either side, and canted towards you. This may make the flicker situation WORSE as your senses are assaulted from all directions.

NATS response to this is that "Nothing else is available", backed up with the ludicrous statement to the press (above).

Facts are simple. There ARE other displays available right now. All the info (thankyou to all who provided it) is right in this thread, including contact details for the major supplier (BARCO).

So, WHY is NATS apparently doing nothing as a matter of urgency?
And why is it misleading the press, deliberately or otherwise?

Answers pls

Rgds
BEX

[BEXIL160]

BARCO refresh rates

Dear All,

I have recieved a nicely worded e-mail from Mr. Richard Wright, the NATS spokesman. He has asked me not to divulge what he has written, so I won't. Before I reply to him I need an answer to the following:

What is the ACTUAL refresh rate used / possible on the BARCO screens? Answers from any unit that has them appreciated.

Thanks

rgds BEX

[rodan]

Bexil - A point that you may need to clarify for the sake of accuracy, there seem to be 2 different types of Barco displays being mentioned here:

The monitors used by approach units all over the UK, and the flat-panel LCD displays that Scott was talking about.

I can't imagine the monitors are large enough meet NERC requirements, so I assume you mean the LCD panels?

rodan

[spekesoftly]

BEX,

Here's the info I promised earlier:-

BARCO 29'' CRT FST Colour Monitor (Orion 16) 1600x1200 pixels

Refresh Rate set at: 75Hz


I believe this monitor is no longer in production.