BARCO Screens
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Bex,
I don't want to make the SONY sound any better, because it probably isn't. However, my good lady wife has just had her non-flickering, LCD TFT display replaced at her place of employment, due to the headaches it caused her. She's gone back to her trusty old CRT. Makes you wonder what those BARCOs might do to the old grey-cells if they aren't tested properly. And if the gods have any evidence that replacing the SONYs won't avoid any headaches or eye problems, can you really see them spending the MILLIONS that would be needed to re-kit both ops rooms with BARCO or similar. They won't even buy us pens anymore...
PS Don't rely on Scott's countrymen for tests that suit our tender little European sensibilities. You wouldn't want to know what they allow their beef cattle to be injected with..
I don't want to make the SONY sound any better, because it probably isn't. However, my good lady wife has just had her non-flickering, LCD TFT display replaced at her place of employment, due to the headaches it caused her. She's gone back to her trusty old CRT. Makes you wonder what those BARCOs might do to the old grey-cells if they aren't tested properly. And if the gods have any evidence that replacing the SONYs won't avoid any headaches or eye problems, can you really see them spending the MILLIONS that would be needed to re-kit both ops rooms with BARCO or similar. They won't even buy us pens anymore...
PS Don't rely on Scott's countrymen for tests that suit our tender little European sensibilities. You wouldn't want to know what they allow their beef cattle to be injected with..
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I'm not suggesting we rely on the FAA info, as there should be data from Maastricht as well.
I dare say the Manufacturer might also be very keen to prove that the displays are better than the SONYs given the size of the replacement order required.
The Status Quo is not an Option here.
Rgds BEX
I dare say the Manufacturer might also be very keen to prove that the displays are better than the SONYs given the size of the replacement order required.
The Status Quo is not an Option here.
Rgds BEX
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BEX;
I expect that there may be some changes between what you are running with and what we are running with. Even though LMART built both of our systems, I think that we had a wee bit more input on making changes to our system then your folks did. There were some tweakings that were required prior to us accepting the DSR display system... But we are still running on the old RISC6000 platforms, and I do believe that they are running on X windows.
As to our beef <G>... I don't remember us having to destroy most of ours <BG>. Cheap shot, I know, but someone else took the first shot. I'll continue to work on the BBQ....
From Texas
I expect that there may be some changes between what you are running with and what we are running with. Even though LMART built both of our systems, I think that we had a wee bit more input on making changes to our system then your folks did. There were some tweakings that were required prior to us accepting the DSR display system... But we are still running on the old RISC6000 platforms, and I do believe that they are running on X windows.
As to our beef <G>... I don't remember us having to destroy most of ours <BG>. Cheap shot, I know, but someone else took the first shot. I'll continue to work on the BBQ....
From Texas
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Back to the usual problem, Scott. Lack of end user input during all phases of product definition, development, production and acceptance. Sadly an oft repeated, and expensive error in the UK.
Indeed within NATS the suits have deliberately ignored en-user input because it might have affected their schedule for the equipment. Never mind that the equipment isn't good enough.
Anyway, here we are, apparently stuck with displays that are a serious health issue and the management seem:
1) Not to accept there is any problem
2) Deny that there's anything better available
Wrong on both counts.
Rgds BEX.
P.S. never had a problem with US beef.... What's the name of that Brazillian place? Boi Na Braza or something like that?
Indeed within NATS the suits have deliberately ignored en-user input because it might have affected their schedule for the equipment. Never mind that the equipment isn't good enough.
Anyway, here we are, apparently stuck with displays that are a serious health issue and the management seem:
1) Not to accept there is any problem
2) Deny that there's anything better available
Wrong on both counts.
Rgds BEX.
P.S. never had a problem with US beef.... What's the name of that Brazillian place? Boi Na Braza or something like that?
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All I can add to this discussion is that in the Danish ATC academy we use Barco 32´screens, with a lot of flickering and such. My believe is that they have a refresh rate of about 75 hz, which really seems too low, considering we use them daily for up to 8 hours. In the ACC and APP they use SONY screens, totally square, and the picture there is much better, actually deadstill. My instructors often complain af the low refresh rate in the SIM, and when you compare it to the real stuff, you would agree. Howewer the cost of our Barco screens is some 15-20000 Euros. For that kind of money, quite alot for just a monitor, I believe you could ask for more.
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
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SRG requirement for LCDs on Operational Positions
Prior to the introduction of any Thin Film Transistor Liquid Crystal Displays (TFT-LCD) on an operational position, there is an SRG requirement for a full safety analysis to have taken place prior to the replacement of any CRT displays.
ATSIN Number 18 of 19th August 2002 refers.
However, TFT-LCDs can be used on non operational positions, i.e. where the displays are not being used for the purpose of separating aircraft. Flat screen BARCOs will start to make an appearance on "non operational" positions in the near future.
ATSIN Number 18 of 19th August 2002 refers.
However, TFT-LCDs can be used on non operational positions, i.e. where the displays are not being used for the purpose of separating aircraft. Flat screen BARCOs will start to make an appearance on "non operational" positions in the near future.
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BEX;
The brazilian beef place is something like that <g>. I take it that you are ready to go back for another go of all the beef and other type meats you can take <G>...
As to getting the agency to do what we want them too. You normally find that if you can generate enough pain or make some one famous enough in the media, they come around to your way of thinking.
regards
The brazilian beef place is something like that <g>. I take it that you are ready to go back for another go of all the beef and other type meats you can take <G>...
As to getting the agency to do what we want them too. You normally find that if you can generate enough pain or make some one famous enough in the media, they come around to your way of thinking.
regards
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Muldrake
We use square Sonys at the NATS college at Bournemouth on our APR and ACC sims, [the same ones that Bex is bothered with] and have done for 8 years now, with no flicker problem. However we, unlike LACC, are still using a near black radar background, with only CAS boundaries displayed as radar maps. Thus there is little actually being drawn on the screen to flicker. The LACC screens use a grey on grey display, which being a lot lighter, will reveal any flicker due to the refresh rate far more markedly than ours. Which is why Bex can see the flicker, and we can't.
The Barco displays Bex is referring to are the same size and shape as the Sonys [not the crappy 36" ones you have, and I suspect some of the other units in this thread have as well]. They are TFT LCD displays though, and thus only about 10cm thick. We have some of these under test at Hurn at the moment. They are much sharper than the Sony, but I personally don't like gazing at them for too long either.
Procedural service anyone?
We use square Sonys at the NATS college at Bournemouth on our APR and ACC sims, [the same ones that Bex is bothered with] and have done for 8 years now, with no flicker problem. However we, unlike LACC, are still using a near black radar background, with only CAS boundaries displayed as radar maps. Thus there is little actually being drawn on the screen to flicker. The LACC screens use a grey on grey display, which being a lot lighter, will reveal any flicker due to the refresh rate far more markedly than ours. Which is why Bex can see the flicker, and we can't.
The Barco displays Bex is referring to are the same size and shape as the Sonys [not the crappy 36" ones you have, and I suspect some of the other units in this thread have as well]. They are TFT LCD displays though, and thus only about 10cm thick. We have some of these under test at Hurn at the moment. They are much sharper than the Sony, but I personally don't like gazing at them for too long either.
Procedural service anyone?
More than just an ATCO
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Bex
I dug the books out. The Barcos at Maastricht are 28 inch 26Kx26K Main Display Panels model MDP 471.
The manual - Nov 2001 version - specifies a refresh rate of 60hz which surprised me.
Seeing the Basco 7 Sony screens side by side on a daily basis the difference is remarkable.
NERC Dweller
Frm the same source; MBTF, standard calculated Ground Benign@25C is 33790 hrs. for digital input only; 30690 hrs. for analog input and 27315 hrs. for combined digital and analog input
I dug the books out. The Barcos at Maastricht are 28 inch 26Kx26K Main Display Panels model MDP 471.
The manual - Nov 2001 version - specifies a refresh rate of 60hz which surprised me.
Seeing the Basco 7 Sony screens side by side on a daily basis the difference is remarkable.
NERC Dweller
Frm the same source; MBTF, standard calculated Ground Benign@25C is 33790 hrs. for digital input only; 30690 hrs. for analog input and 27315 hrs. for combined digital and analog input
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Euroc5175 points out that there is a CAA notice about LCD screens. But it doesn't say anything about whether the displays are being used for the purpose of separating aircraft or not - it says that it applies to safety related CNS/ATM equipment. In my book this meeans anything with a screen on it visible from the working position.
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Thanks Lon..
With an LCD screen refresh rates are not critical since there is no descernable flicker. With CRTs (like the SONYs) however, it is really important. Anything less than 75hz is undesirable due to flicker.
Rgds BEX.
P.S. Where's me old colleague Traffic? He's usual good for an opinion (sometimes useful, always thought provoking) about anything. I kinda miss him.
BEX
With an LCD screen refresh rates are not critical since there is no descernable flicker. With CRTs (like the SONYs) however, it is really important. Anything less than 75hz is undesirable due to flicker.
Rgds BEX.
P.S. Where's me old colleague Traffic? He's usual good for an opinion (sometimes useful, always thought provoking) about anything. I kinda miss him.
BEX
More than just an ATCO
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Bex,
TT is around, he was on leave looking at the Christmas lights in London - but he is now back and winding people up as usual, see the thread on salary
Lon More - more than just an ATCO
TT is around, he was on leave looking at the Christmas lights in London - but he is now back and winding people up as usual, see the thread on salary
Lon More - more than just an ATCO
