Hurry up and wait !
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Hurry up and wait !
So there we were, over the Channel inbound to MAN. Trying to get some idea of a sequence - I don't really care if we are first, second or third but a clue would be nice. Plane on our left turns out to be an Embryo going to MAN as well. Ask London for a speed suggestion. She says slow down. We do. Next sector descends us and says keep your speed up. We do. Next sector puts us on headings, then transfers us to MAN. We call in with a heading and speed. MAN says slow to 250, go to Dayne and hold ! We are now in front of Embryo but higher so yep, he should go first. I never knew they were so fast !
My point - why can't we get a bit more info or coordination earlier so we can come up with a cunning plan ?
My point - why can't we get a bit more info or coordination earlier so we can come up with a cunning plan ?
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Over the channel inbound to MAN?
Sorry, but you aint ever going to be first!
Try pestering for descent - trade off fuel economy for 2 less goes around the hold? (Arrive after the embryo, but lower - roles are reversed)
Having said that, at the end of the day, the only person with a cunning plan, is the ATCO sitting working your aircraft, and excessive pestering may just gently bump you down the order.
(I'm not a MAN ATCO, these are guesses) and as such I completely accept the fact that I'm going to be shot down in flames.
Sorry, but you aint ever going to be first!
Try pestering for descent - trade off fuel economy for 2 less goes around the hold? (Arrive after the embryo, but lower - roles are reversed)
Having said that, at the end of the day, the only person with a cunning plan, is the ATCO sitting working your aircraft, and excessive pestering may just gently bump you down the order.
(I'm not a MAN ATCO, these are guesses) and as such I completely accept the fact that I'm going to be shot down in flames.
Last edited by Cuddles; 8th Sep 2002 at 21:12.
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Bit of an old chestnut, this one!
In short, each controller will sort the traffic as seems best to them in their sector. If we can manage to tie that in with an approach sequence, then so much the better. Often I'm afraid it happens the other way round.
Consider this:
At NERC (who you were talking to mid-Channel) we have NO IDEA what the holding situation is at CC as we have no stack info (and even if we did it would only show your position if delays were 20 mins or more) other than by looking at the radar. This is impossible for someone controlling over the Channel.
As you progress through London Upper Sector (S2 as it is now) and onto Daventry (S28/34) and to Manchester, they will all give you instructions which will sequence or separate you against their own traffic. Maybe the first person was trying to put you behind the Embryo (like the name
) because they are indeed quite quick in the cruise (M.77+) (but NOT in the climb!!), and perhaps that didn't work so the other one tried to get you in front, only for you to be put into a hold of which only Manchester would be aware. Happens all the time, I'm afraid, and not much we can do about it that far back.
You may not know that the stack info we give for LL and KK is drawn from a computer screen into which EAT info is only put (by Terminal Control) about 2 mins before we transfer you on, otherwise the screen says: 'All delays less than 20 mins' So when you get an estimate of "About 10 mins" it will be a rough idea drawn from squinting at the holding stack on radar and seeing how many are there!
Yes, I know what you are going to say: "£623m and they can't even work out a sequence!" True, but the decor is a LOVELY shade of grey and the carp in the lake are HUGE!
In short, each controller will sort the traffic as seems best to them in their sector. If we can manage to tie that in with an approach sequence, then so much the better. Often I'm afraid it happens the other way round.
Consider this:
At NERC (who you were talking to mid-Channel) we have NO IDEA what the holding situation is at CC as we have no stack info (and even if we did it would only show your position if delays were 20 mins or more) other than by looking at the radar. This is impossible for someone controlling over the Channel.
As you progress through London Upper Sector (S2 as it is now) and onto Daventry (S28/34) and to Manchester, they will all give you instructions which will sequence or separate you against their own traffic. Maybe the first person was trying to put you behind the Embryo (like the name
) because they are indeed quite quick in the cruise (M.77+) (but NOT in the climb!!), and perhaps that didn't work so the other one tried to get you in front, only for you to be put into a hold of which only Manchester would be aware. Happens all the time, I'm afraid, and not much we can do about it that far back.You may not know that the stack info we give for LL and KK is drawn from a computer screen into which EAT info is only put (by Terminal Control) about 2 mins before we transfer you on, otherwise the screen says: 'All delays less than 20 mins' So when you get an estimate of "About 10 mins" it will be a rough idea drawn from squinting at the holding stack on radar and seeing how many are there!
Yes, I know what you are going to say: "£623m and they can't even work out a sequence!" True, but the decor is a LOVELY shade of grey and the carp in the lake are HUGE!
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Good info,
Cuddles - London is usually so busy that I barely get a word in, let alone even thinking of pestering for descent - anyway, I wouldn't dream of it
eyeinthesky - Useful info and what I sort of expected. Pierre throws a bunch of maggots at you from the south and you feed them up north ! By the time we got to MAN airspace there were 3 of us all close together and it was inevitable one of us would hold - quite unusual though at MAN these days.
Glad you've got a huge Carp, I guess it's called Bob ?
Cuddles - London is usually so busy that I barely get a word in, let alone even thinking of pestering for descent - anyway, I wouldn't dream of it
eyeinthesky - Useful info and what I sort of expected. Pierre throws a bunch of maggots at you from the south and you feed them up north ! By the time we got to MAN airspace there were 3 of us all close together and it was inevitable one of us would hold - quite unusual though at MAN these days.
Glad you've got a huge Carp, I guess it's called Bob ?
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Another little snippet that may be of use to you and others, Javelin....
We often use speed control into the LTMA...... and you often end up in the hold. Now I can imagine you are thinking "What was all that about if we just end up going round and round at OCK/BIG/Timba? etc etc".
Well, your actual lateral position in the hold will be different to everyone else. This helps in two ways. ONE The SSR labels don't overlap, making them much easier to read, and more importantly TWO it is much easier to sequence a/c out of the hold if they already have some lateral space built in. Hence less holding time.
Hope this is of use.
Rgds BEX
We often use speed control into the LTMA...... and you often end up in the hold. Now I can imagine you are thinking "What was all that about if we just end up going round and round at OCK/BIG/Timba? etc etc".
Well, your actual lateral position in the hold will be different to everyone else. This helps in two ways. ONE The SSR labels don't overlap, making them much easier to read, and more importantly TWO it is much easier to sequence a/c out of the hold if they already have some lateral space built in. Hence less holding time.
Hope this is of use.
Rgds BEX
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From a MACC point of view, one of the most frustrating things when presented with 3 from the south is that invariably the most easterly of them happens to be the one which LACC has speeded as the fastest.
Out of the 3, the most westerly of them will actually have the shortest distance to DAYNE.
Coupled with the fact that the base of the airways to the east is FL105, it means that almost every time, the easternmost aircraft will need vectoring over to the west on top of the other 2, whilst the more westerly of the 3 will get the lowest level at Dayne.
It may seem a triviality, but when you consider the limited width of the airspace there and the fact that we will also be juggling with Leeds and Liverpool inbounds and Birmingham/East Mids northbound departures against the Manch inbounds, you might appreciate that better presentation of the traffic would make this particular problem a whole lot easier.
Regards
160
Out of the 3, the most westerly of them will actually have the shortest distance to DAYNE.
Coupled with the fact that the base of the airways to the east is FL105, it means that almost every time, the easternmost aircraft will need vectoring over to the west on top of the other 2, whilst the more westerly of the 3 will get the lowest level at Dayne.
It may seem a triviality, but when you consider the limited width of the airspace there and the fact that we will also be juggling with Leeds and Liverpool inbounds and Birmingham/East Mids northbound departures against the Manch inbounds, you might appreciate that better presentation of the traffic would make this particular problem a whole lot easier.
Regards
160
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160 - Absolutely spot on - we were doing the speed of heat when we called MAN and were the furthest East, only to be told slow down and go to the hold at Dayne. Perhaps through this forum, some inter ATC calls and a bit of co-operation there may just be a chance to change things. I am on vacation for a week watching old airplanes go very fast over the desert
(FE - they are American, therefore they are airplanes - apart from the Furies which are aeroplanes - sorry private rant ).
When I get back I will try and get up to MAN radar and have a chat.
(FE - they are American, therefore they are airplanes - apart from the Furies which are aeroplanes - sorry private rant
). When I get back I will try and get up to MAN radar and have a chat.
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Just seen this thread. Jav's post reminds me of a bloke on a BOAC (note!) Command Course I showed round Heathrow a hundred years ago... "We had to hold at Bovingdon for 10 minutes this morning. Couldn't you have called us up while we were over the Atlantic and told us to slow down?" He meant it, too, poor kid!! (No offence Jav)
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Just reminded of a phrase banded about at the college about how if you ask 6 different controlers to how to handle a traffic scenario you will always get 9 different answers. In short it really does depend on the atco's involved and how they personally like to position traffic I'm affraid ( although the point about being on the eastern edge of the airway is a very valid point for most controllers). It would be nice if we could call up the next sector to ask them how we would like the traffic presented and I'm sure most, if sector is quiet and you can see possible problems for the next guy, will make the effort(I know I try...!).
Just be warned I have worked with controllers who would make certain companies last if they could for spurious reasons such as no famflights, no staff deals or even being bumped off the jump seat at last moment. People can be so spiteful
Just be warned I have worked with controllers who would make certain companies last if they could for spurious reasons such as no famflights, no staff deals or even being bumped off the jump seat at last moment. People can be so spiteful
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one last point for when you arrive from stateside jav
160 (i think)and i are on the area side of manch
the other thing that might screw the plans you have is that final approach sequence is down to manch radar
but come and have a visit sit in with thoses operational
and if time and staff lift the range to 250nm and we can chat about these probs
regrds the maine
160 (i think)and i are on the area side of manch
the other thing that might screw the plans you have is that final approach sequence is down to manch radar
but come and have a visit sit in with thoses operational
and if time and staff lift the range to 250nm and we can chat about these probs
regrds the maine
