Ex-Mil Area ATCO Fast Track
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Ex-Mil Area ATCO Fast Track
Can anyone shed any more information on the rumour currently floating around.
It is said that NATS are now seriously considering fast tracking Ex-Mil Area ATCO's on a short conversion course with a view to getting bums on seats at Swanwick soonest.
Allegedly on direction of the Manager ACS NATS, who has the head of CATC, Manager Military Liason (Centre Place) and manager ATC Swanwick on the case.
No word of length of course, pay etc. but it does sound as if desperation has finally forced them to tear up the 'gentlemans agreement' that civil wouldn't touch ex-mil, except on a full course.
Answers on a post card to the usual address.....
It is said that NATS are now seriously considering fast tracking Ex-Mil Area ATCO's on a short conversion course with a view to getting bums on seats at Swanwick soonest.
Allegedly on direction of the Manager ACS NATS, who has the head of CATC, Manager Military Liason (Centre Place) and manager ATC Swanwick on the case.
No word of length of course, pay etc. but it does sound as if desperation has finally forced them to tear up the 'gentlemans agreement' that civil wouldn't touch ex-mil, except on a full course.
Answers on a post card to the usual address.....
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well that used to happen at dundridge ( however you spell it!)
then it stopped - although think it just used to be twr, app and apr - correct me i'm wrong!!
unsurprised it may happen again
prof
then it stopped - although think it just used to be twr, app and apr - correct me i'm wrong!!
unsurprised it may happen again
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While a 'fast track', Dundridge was still the full CAA APR,ADCand APP syllabus. All the CAA did was cut out the extra padding (OJT course, BAW course and flying training). They then got about 65 (out of 72) trainees into the system after only 6 months of intensive training. Much better % than CATC by the way. So, if it's going to happen for Area then I say the sooner the better. Good luck from one who crossed over a while back ;-) It can be done !
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Yes, getting rid of the padding would considerably shorten the course but what would the effect be? By that I mean the effect on Swanwick staff and the unions. Would there be the Colonel Blimp approach "You've not done the full 18 months, can't possibly be good enough!"? And what about the airfield boys and girls, 'cause they'd be leapfrogged over pay wise?
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I believe that I was the first ATCO to be posted to Heathrow who had not undertaken a "Ministry" course and I was viewed with a great deal of scepticism and behind-back-whispering by some of the ex-cadets there. I had to do the approach radar rating course, for which I was attached to a cadet course which had just reached that stage of training.
My only ATC Course was with IAL back in 1966 and it lasted, if I recall, about 8 weeks during which time we studied Aerodrome, Approach, Air Law, Met, Nav and Tels. We also spent half of each day on the sims. It was intensive, but about 80% of us passed and were posted abroad. We then undertook about 3 months "OJT" after which we sat further licensing exams (something like the UK rating exams) before being issued with full licences. After a further period we underwent validation exams. During two spells of leave I visited Bournemouth and sat my UK licence/ ADC and APC exams to get my UK Yellow Peril..
'spose I was in a similar position to the mil guys wanting to transfer "fast track" except when I joined the Civil Service and was posted to Heathrow I had nearly 4 years civil ATC experience. If you RAF guys would take the trouble to go and get yourselves UK civil licences you might find it easier..
My only ATC Course was with IAL back in 1966 and it lasted, if I recall, about 8 weeks during which time we studied Aerodrome, Approach, Air Law, Met, Nav and Tels. We also spent half of each day on the sims. It was intensive, but about 80% of us passed and were posted abroad. We then undertook about 3 months "OJT" after which we sat further licensing exams (something like the UK rating exams) before being issued with full licences. After a further period we underwent validation exams. During two spells of leave I visited Bournemouth and sat my UK licence/ ADC and APC exams to get my UK Yellow Peril..
'spose I was in a similar position to the mil guys wanting to transfer "fast track" except when I joined the Civil Service and was posted to Heathrow I had nearly 4 years civil ATC experience. If you RAF guys would take the trouble to go and get yourselves UK civil licences you might find it easier..
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The Dundridge fast track courses were a lot shorter than 6 months, approx 12 weeks I think, and included adc/apc and apr.
I did a term of confinement at Dunderhead whilst these courses were going through, and they had a very high success rate.
Admittedly the selection procedures were tough and the course itself nearly finished off many of the candidates, but the vast majority of them got through it first time.
As an outsider, I think that it would be a good idea for NATS to reintroduce these courses to enable them to recruit experienced actos (mil' or civilian) who havent got all the ratings required for a specific function.
To a certain extent, perhaps the existing CATC courses could also be adapted to the fast track courses, after all the pressures it would exert are no different to the day to day working environment in the field.
The existing recruitment system is prehistoric and clearly needs to be overhauled.
I don't know what objections the existing NATS staff and unions could have to this, but I'm sure someone will come up with a gripe or two.
I did a term of confinement at Dunderhead whilst these courses were going through, and they had a very high success rate.
Admittedly the selection procedures were tough and the course itself nearly finished off many of the candidates, but the vast majority of them got through it first time.
As an outsider, I think that it would be a good idea for NATS to reintroduce these courses to enable them to recruit experienced actos (mil' or civilian) who havent got all the ratings required for a specific function.
To a certain extent, perhaps the existing CATC courses could also be adapted to the fast track courses, after all the pressures it would exert are no different to the day to day working environment in the field.
The existing recruitment system is prehistoric and clearly needs to be overhauled.
I don't know what objections the existing NATS staff and unions could have to this, but I'm sure someone will come up with a gripe or two.
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why?
why is it easier for military pilots to get their cpl and atpls than it is for military controllers to get their licences? i have a suspicion that civilian controllers dont want lots of ex military controllers invading the civil atc scene.
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Canberra... I don't think that's really true.... although if you'd had as many frights as I have from some of your military chums you'd probably accept that there may be an element of truth in what you say!!
By the way, why do you never use capital letters in your postings??
By the way, why do you never use capital letters in your postings??
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HD,
Having read most of your posts on here, it is evident that you have been a Heathrow bod since Pontious was a pilot 
Just wondered how you have managed to get so many frights from the Mil? They must have been pretty dreadful to get anywhere near your stuff, unless it is Whipping Boy's SATCO and his colleagues you are on about?
By the way, I've wondered that too, <shift> key broken canberra?
Having read most of your posts on here, it is evident that you have been a Heathrow bod since Pontious was a pilot
Just wondered how you have managed to get so many frights from the Mil? They must have been pretty dreadful to get anywhere near your stuff, unless it is Whipping Boy's SATCO and his colleagues you are on about?
By the way, I've wondered that too, <shift> key broken canberra?
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Canberra:
'Tis my suspicion that because ATC in UK is headed up by a joint and integrated aviation board thats where the 'stopper' is put on transition from Mil to Civil. After all many of the the pieces of the courses are the same, the 'Rules' are the same etc. etc. But the only 'sop' given to an experienced and qualified Mil ATCO is that if he applies for civil then the upper age limit is removed and a tiny bit of the civil course. Because if there was any more cognisance taken of Mil experience then there would be a mass exodus of Mil transferring to civil. Similar job, more pay, overtime and NO secondary duties, less BS & SCRATCOH rules apply!!
From talking to my civil colleagues they have no problem with Mil ATCO's converting and doing a shorter course. In fact they'd welcome them, in part due to the severe shortage at Swanwick (10% shortage and some watches another 10% down due sickness). The more bums on seats the better for everyone, ATCO's, pilots and the paying public! Oh, and of course it would get NATS 'management' out of an embarrassing hole due to a shortage which was foreseen but not acted on.
'Tis my suspicion that because ATC in UK is headed up by a joint and integrated aviation board thats where the 'stopper' is put on transition from Mil to Civil. After all many of the the pieces of the courses are the same, the 'Rules' are the same etc. etc. But the only 'sop' given to an experienced and qualified Mil ATCO is that if he applies for civil then the upper age limit is removed and a tiny bit of the civil course. Because if there was any more cognisance taken of Mil experience then there would be a mass exodus of Mil transferring to civil. Similar job, more pay, overtime and NO secondary duties, less BS & SCRATCOH rules apply!!
From talking to my civil colleagues they have no problem with Mil ATCO's converting and doing a shorter course. In fact they'd welcome them, in part due to the severe shortage at Swanwick (10% shortage and some watches another 10% down due sickness). The more bums on seats the better for everyone, ATCO's, pilots and the paying public! Oh, and of course it would get NATS 'management' out of an embarrassing hole due to a shortage which was foreseen but not acted on.
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Looks like T3C5 might have hit on some truth. The LJAO back desk has had a deluge of calls from throughout the Mil world asking if the rumoured short course is true and how do they apply!!!
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meldrewv
Have you not seen the ads in the back of Flight? Thought the same thing myself but couldn't afford the paycut !
(And after giving back my blue uniform I don't want it back)
CM
Have you not seen the ads in the back of Flight? Thought the same thing myself but couldn't afford the paycut !
(And after giving back my blue uniform I don't want it back
)CM
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meldrewv - I think the mil would welcome you with open arms, they are desperately short. (Not that I'm suggesting they'd be desperate to accept you.)
take5 - you've hit the nail on the head. The RAF high-heidyins would kak themselves if RAF ATCOs could leave easily .... cos' then they'd have to get their bums out of the offices and control again themselves !
Dundridge was 8 weeks for ADC, 10 weeks for APP and 10 for APR = 28. Near as dammit 6 months. No recourses were allowed which tends to focus the mind. Wonder how that would go down at CATC ?
take5 - you've hit the nail on the head. The RAF high-heidyins would kak themselves if RAF ATCOs could leave easily .... cos' then they'd have to get their bums out of the offices and control again themselves !
Dundridge was 8 weeks for ADC, 10 weeks for APP and 10 for APR = 28. Near as dammit 6 months. No recourses were allowed which tends to focus the mind. Wonder how that would go down at CATC ?
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Having done both disciplines and now working civil area, I can assure you that the two controlling jobs are VERY different!!
If the college can assure that that standards are not dropped, then it is surely a good idea.... why do the aerodrome courses to work area??
Bookwork could be done on ressetlement courses before joining NATS and succesful completion could ensure a place on the course. (Like the current APC). HOWEVER.. as the actual mechanics of controlling are so very different, I personally feel that it would not be prudent to miss out the Area one course.... it provides a great foundation and teaches the basics.
ALL controllers, civil and military alike, know that if you do not understand the basics, everything else will go to pot!!
It will be interesting to watch the way ahead... No doubt the 'gentlemans agreement' has been torn up in the light of the PPP.
If the college can assure that that standards are not dropped, then it is surely a good idea.... why do the aerodrome courses to work area??
Bookwork could be done on ressetlement courses before joining NATS and succesful completion could ensure a place on the course. (Like the current APC). HOWEVER.. as the actual mechanics of controlling are so very different, I personally feel that it would not be prudent to miss out the Area one course.... it provides a great foundation and teaches the basics.
ALL controllers, civil and military alike, know that if you do not understand the basics, everything else will go to pot!!
It will be interesting to watch the way ahead... No doubt the 'gentlemans agreement' has been torn up in the light of the PPP.
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Its my current understanding that the intention is to only do Area 2 (11 weeks) and study aviation law during the evenings. Allegedly SRG have agreed that provided the 'students' pass the exams everyone else does then they have no objections. Similarly the unions can have no argument along those lines.
There is discussion for ex-mil coming out at their option points to do some training as resettlement and transition across to civil. Something along the lines of how mil aircrew are eased into civil.
Interesting times.
There is discussion for ex-mil coming out at their option points to do some training as resettlement and transition across to civil. Something along the lines of how mil aircrew are eased into civil.
Interesting times.
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Whipping Boy.. We'll do our best to keep things standard! When I first moved to WD from Heathrow I spoke to one or two old hand RAF guys in the tea bar about trappers (not a lot of people know what that means you know) and I mentioned "Iris". Does that mean anythign to you?