UK ATC Unit validations
Thread Starter
UK ATC Unit validations
In the UK, is it possible or legal for an ATCO to hold validations for more than one unit ? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe at Swanwick, ATCOs can be current, for example, on Luton and Stansted Radar. What about, say, Edinburgh and Glasgow Radar or Gatwick and Heathrow ADC ? I appreciate different ATC employers might make multiple validations impractical but I'm really interested in what's potentially allowed.
Thankyou.
Thankyou.
In the UK, is it possible or legal for an ATCO to hold validations for more than one unit ? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe at Swanwick, ATCOs can be current, for example, on Luton and Stansted Radar. What about, say, Edinburgh and Glasgow Radar or Gatwick and Heathrow ADC ? I appreciate different ATC employers might make multiple validations impractical but I'm really interested in what's potentially allowed.
Thankyou.
Thankyou.
Thread Starter
Thankyou TCAS. I admit, that isn't the answer I was expecting! I'm sure holding multiple endorsements gives units and controllers a degree of flexibility. I hope the controllers are suitably remunerated but that's a different matter.
Once a controller leaves one unit to work elsewhere, do their endorsements/validations at the unit they've left automatically get cancelled or is there some sort of grace period ?
Once a controller leaves one unit to work elsewhere, do their endorsements/validations at the unit they've left automatically get cancelled or is there some sort of grace period ?
Reaching back into my own personal “mists of time”, it ,at least used to be, was the case that a unit validation lasted 90 days ; & you had to provide a service at least once within that period to remain “current”. After that time had elapsed, you could not exercise the privileges of your licence without re-validating. Am I correct ?; & is this still the case ? It was possible to be valid at different units, I believe, provided that you had passed the validation at both, & had met the stipulation of “once every 90 days” at both. So, you could leave employment at one unit & be valid at both your old & new units simultaneously. Mind you, you would have to go some to validate within 90 days of arrival at the new unit !
Can anyone substantiate this statement ?
Can anyone substantiate this statement ?
Thread Starter
The 90 days grace period sounds familiar. I guess that was originally to allow for extended sickness and other leaves of absence rather than allowing controllers to flip-flop between units (I'm not suggesting that happens in the real world)! Do individual unit managers have the authority to cancel an individual's validations or is that something only the regulator can do?
The terminology may have changed since I retired 16 years ago, but the LCEs (Local Competency Examiners - ordinary working ATCOs with LCE Ratings & local responsibility for ensuring each ATCO - including themselves - was competent to work each position) were certainly (almost certainly still are) tasked with making decisions about each ATCO’s operational competency; & , if they assessed that an individual was not meeting the professional standards etc, they were empowered to suspend their validations & to re-validate them. This would be done in consultation with the Safety Regulation Group of the CAA, & the unit SATCO/ATC Manager. Although, he / she did not play any part in determining the ATCO’s competency.
By the way, you are correct in your assumptions about “flip flopping between units”. This did not happen in my day & I venture to suggest that my generation would never have acquiesced with this practice; which has been brought about, in my opinion, solely as a measure to enable employers to save money ! Doubtless, a “modern ATCO” will soon be on here denying my suggestion !
By the way, you are correct in your assumptions about “flip flopping between units”. This did not happen in my day & I venture to suggest that my generation would never have acquiesced with this practice; which has been brought about, in my opinion, solely as a measure to enable employers to save money ! Doubtless, a “modern ATCO” will soon be on here denying my suggestion !
Last edited by kcockayne; 21st May 2024 at 11:20. Reason: Extra comments
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Thankyou TCAS. I admit, that isn't the answer I was expecting! I'm sure holding multiple endorsements gives units and controllers a degree of flexibility. I hope the controllers are suitably remunerated but that's a different matter.
Once a controller leaves one unit to work elsewhere, do their endorsements/validations at the unit they've left automatically get cancelled or is there some sort of grace period ?
Once a controller leaves one unit to work elsewhere, do their endorsements/validations at the unit they've left automatically get cancelled or is there some sort of grace period ?
I would have loved to have been able to maintain my Heathrow Tower rating and train on Heathrow Approach (both when it was at West Drayton and now Swanwick) but alas, no. It's a shame as I think it would increase job satisfaction and retention.
Thread Starter
Thanks all. An interesting subject. I was prompted to ask the questions by recently hearing a few ATCOs on duty elsewhere, all of whom used to work at my place. Made me wonder how easy it would be for any of them to come running back, provided the boss was willing to take them back!
Concur with your post, Gonzo. However, your example of Heathrow TWR & APP, would, although actually provided by different units, at least has the merit , & is centered, on the same Aerodrome. In my book , this makes it the same place, in effect. I also agree with your desire to do both jobs - no desire to ban that - I did both at Aberdeen & Jersey (+ a quasi Area function at Jersey), & can attest that it made the job far more interesting. I cannot see why Heathrow ATCOs cannot do APP Radar at Swanwick, or before that, at the old LATCC.
IAL and later SERCO controllers often used to hold validations at entirely different units and some controllers at the larger MOD(PE) units would also do so by supplying leave reliefs at some of the smaller units eg a Farnborough controller would do leave relief at Llanbedr plus an Aberdeen controller would do the same for Sumburgh.
In all cases of course, they had to validate and maintain regular competency at their detached units as well as their main unit. I understand ATSD weren't happy doing this but they couldn't find a legal reason why it couldn't be done.
In all cases of course, they had to validate and maintain regular competency at their detached units as well as their main unit. I understand ATSD weren't happy doing this but they couldn't find a legal reason why it couldn't be done.
Concur with your post, Gonzo. However, your example of Heathrow TWR & APP, would, although actually provided by different units, at least has the merit , & is centered, on the same Aerodrome. In my book , this makes it the same place, in effect. I also agree with your desire to do both jobs - no desire to ban that - I did both at Aberdeen & Jersey (+ a quasi Area function at Jersey), & can attest that it made the job far more interesting. I cannot see why Heathrow ATCOs cannot do APP Radar at Swanwick, or before that, at the old LATCC.
Go on then I’ll bite…
So this was going on with the generation who’d never acquiesce to it…? If it was happening with IAL I doubt that could be described as “modern”.
By the way, you are correct in your assumptions about “flip flopping between units”. This did not happen in my day & I venture to suggest that my generation would never have acquiesced with this practice; which has been brought about, in my opinion, solely as a measure to enable employers to save money ! Doubtless, a “modern ATCO” will soon be on here denying my suggestion !
IAL and later SERCO controllers often used to hold validations at entirely different units and some controllers at the larger MOD(PE) units would also do so by supplying leave reliefs at some of the smaller units eg a Farnborough controller would do leave relief at Llanbedr plus an Aberdeen controller would do the same for Sumburgh.
“This was going on etc.” Yes, but only in so far as it was necessary to cover leave at small units eg Alderney - where a few Guernsey ATCOs, validated at Alderney, covered for annual leave & sickness. It wasn’t used to save on employing extra staff who would not be necessary most of the time. No one “acquiesced” in this procedure, & no one was doing two jobs at once at different places. Doesn’t fit my interpretation of an undesirable practice, or “flip flopping between units”.
Last edited by kcockayne; 21st May 2024 at 17:45. Reason: extra comment
Other than examples like Gonzo with Fairford, are there any current examples of people doing two jobs in different places? Where are these undesirable practices happening?
Having retired, I am not up to speed with what, exactly, is going on with this. However, before I did retire. it was being suggested that such arrangements would soon be used for the running of remote Towers (one ATCO doing more than one TWR simultaneously). I suspect that this is now happening in some places; but do not know of any actual examples.
To the "older hands", brought up on a more restrictive philosophy, such ideas as combining Tower with App Rdr is another example of "new fangled ideas" being allowed (for the convenience of the management); whereas, in bygone days. this was frowned on as being unsafe. I certainly feel that this is not an acceptable practice.
To the "older hands", brought up on a more restrictive philosophy, such ideas as combining Tower with App Rdr is another example of "new fangled ideas" being allowed (for the convenience of the management); whereas, in bygone days. this was frowned on as being unsafe. I certainly feel that this is not an acceptable practice.
One situation was told to me about SERCO; a SATCO was told by management that they had taken over a contract at another airfield about 40 miles away and the SATCO was told he would be taking over as SATCO at the 'new' unit in addition to continuing as SATCO in his existing job.
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I’m an Enroute person, and held tickets in domestic and oceanic for several years, switching between units within the same shift to follow the traffic, routinely, and safely. I wasn’t the only one either, over the years, there were literally dozens of us doing that, my first time being back in 1993 (so I’m not a new g person, by any stretch).
The design of ATM systems, automation and tools make things like this more complex these days, but good safety assurance processes, solid HF practitioners and a workforce who are keen to work safely make stuff like this work.
For airports, I suspect Belfast could make a good case study, and also that accountable managers can span multiple sites too, as recently I’ve seen a single ATS GM in charge of two airports at the same time.
The design of ATM systems, automation and tools make things like this more complex these days, but good safety assurance processes, solid HF practitioners and a workforce who are keen to work safely make stuff like this work.
For airports, I suspect Belfast could make a good case study, and also that accountable managers can span multiple sites too, as recently I’ve seen a single ATS GM in charge of two airports at the same time.
While there are now several digital towers in the UK, I don’t believe any of them serve more than a single airport. I think HIAL were the ones proposing a multi-tower concept, but that was predictably shelved several years ago. I don’t do radar-in-the-tower, but my understanding is it’s limited to exceptionally low levels of traffic only. I agree it sounds like it has the potential to go wrong, but it’s been on the books in the UK now for 10 years. Have either of you heard in your grapevines of any incidents it’s caused so far?
What happened next in the SERCO story, did said SATCO say “yes sir/ma’am” and just do what they were told?
What happened next in the SERCO story, did said SATCO say “yes sir/ma’am” and just do what they were told?