You want us to descend now?
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BOAC
Just out of curiousity, what is ambiguous about descend level XXX? Or in our case, descend and maintain XXX. If you don't hear pilots discression it means only one thing and is less verbage..
regards
Just out of curiousity, what is ambiguous about descend level XXX? Or in our case, descend and maintain XXX. If you don't hear pilots discression it means only one thing and is less verbage..
regards
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Don't have the book at hand to check but I think the ICAO 'pilots discretion' phrase is exactly the same as the UK one.
So, as Scott alludes, it should be clear that an instruction without either 'when ready' in most of the world, or 'pilots discretion' in the USA means that we want you to do it now.
I don't think we should have to spoon feed pilots in these busy times, it wastes our time and yours. And time is becoming a rare commodity both on the flight deck and in the ATC facility.
So, as Scott alludes, it should be clear that an instruction without either 'when ready' in most of the world, or 'pilots discretion' in the USA means that we want you to do it now.
I don't think we should have to spoon feed pilots in these busy times, it wastes our time and yours. And time is becoming a rare commodity both on the flight deck and in the ATC facility.
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I tried to explain a while back - in Europe, (my area) 'Descend xxx', when queried, is often found to be 'at pilot's discretion'; I am reluctant to point at any particular countries, but there are a few where this is more often than not the case when a 'early' descent clearance is given for no APPARENT reason, and nearly always for some inter-area hand-over agreement. This is NOT a 'pop' at ATC, but an attempt, as I judge from other posts, to reduce R/T loading (OK - pilot generated!), and does NOT refer to UK ATC. The only criticism there is a systemic one where the descent 'restrictions' are sometimes 'known' only to the controller.
I think from all the posts, NorthernSky's (6/8) sums it up best:
"As pilots, we want to stay at cruise altitude and descend with the ideal profile.
All of the above debate seems to spring from one annoyance: If ATC give us a descent instruction, in the form 'Descend FL330', we reply, 'Roger descend FL330, is that pilot's discretion?, and ATC say 'Affirm, that's when ready'... then we're not being provided the SERVICE that we should be, in the first place.
In a nutshell, the controller should ALWAYS specify 'when ready' when it applies. Not to do so costs us money.
Because they don't, we ask. If they did, we wouldn't ask. "
It is because there are quite a few who do not say 'when ready' when it is relevant. I have NO issue with your NEEDING me to descend. I will. Maybe it is a training thing in those areas where it happens more? It appears that ALL ATC people on this thread DO say 'when ready' where it can be given. Good. The problem lies with those who don't.
It SHOULD be abundantly clear to all pilots reading this thread that 'DESCEND XXX' means now. That is what I have always assumed it to mean. It is just that after a few hundred descents where it was not necessary THEN, we become a bit inquisitive!
Can I also take it from the lack of comment that 500fpm is OK with ATC for an 'early' descent (unless other rates specified)?
The original thread post raised another issue - that of pilot awareness of/ and interaction with/ FMC programmes. There is an obvious gap there in the way the FMC works v the ATC 'picture' of what we will do, and we need to close that gap.
I think from all the posts, NorthernSky's (6/8) sums it up best:
"As pilots, we want to stay at cruise altitude and descend with the ideal profile.
All of the above debate seems to spring from one annoyance: If ATC give us a descent instruction, in the form 'Descend FL330', we reply, 'Roger descend FL330, is that pilot's discretion?, and ATC say 'Affirm, that's when ready'... then we're not being provided the SERVICE that we should be, in the first place.
In a nutshell, the controller should ALWAYS specify 'when ready' when it applies. Not to do so costs us money.
Because they don't, we ask. If they did, we wouldn't ask. "
It is because there are quite a few who do not say 'when ready' when it is relevant. I have NO issue with your NEEDING me to descend. I will. Maybe it is a training thing in those areas where it happens more? It appears that ALL ATC people on this thread DO say 'when ready' where it can be given. Good. The problem lies with those who don't.
It SHOULD be abundantly clear to all pilots reading this thread that 'DESCEND XXX' means now. That is what I have always assumed it to mean. It is just that after a few hundred descents where it was not necessary THEN, we become a bit inquisitive!
Can I also take it from the lack of comment that 500fpm is OK with ATC for an 'early' descent (unless other rates specified)?
The original thread post raised another issue - that of pilot awareness of/ and interaction with/ FMC programmes. There is an obvious gap there in the way the FMC works v the ATC 'picture' of what we will do, and we need to close that gap.
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Fair points on 'When ready' BOAC. And let's hope that they are taken on board and the word spread so that the service improves for all concerned.
On the other hand, I have had some (very very small %) pilots query the 'when ready' part with 'do you want us to descend now ??'. My normal reply is something like 'Negative, the clue was when ready'. Must try and curb that kind of reply
The 500fpm is laid down as the minimum in the national document in the UK (AIP) so I don't think anyone in ATC can argue they expect otherwise. It actually raises an interesting point, which has appeared in a few threads. And that is that quite often we see ATC people claiming they expect to see different things from the standards notified in the relevant ATC and pilot documentation. For example people saying they expect to see a standard rate of 1500fpm (whose standard ?? it's not a published one). Or people saying that they are aware that a new level clearance cancels a previous restriction, but they expect the pilot still to do it. If they are basing separation on things they expect to see, rather than on the things which the regulations and procedures mandate, then I fear their technique is setting them up for a fall one day. There is only one way to be sure and that is to know what the procedures say, and if you require something different then positively specify it.
I agree wholeheartedly about the FMC gap. It is something I was looking at a while back but the project was overtaken by events. Perhaps it is well worth dusting off and resurrecting again.
On the other hand, I have had some (very very small %) pilots query the 'when ready' part with 'do you want us to descend now ??'. My normal reply is something like 'Negative, the clue was when ready'. Must try and curb that kind of reply
The 500fpm is laid down as the minimum in the national document in the UK (AIP) so I don't think anyone in ATC can argue they expect otherwise. It actually raises an interesting point, which has appeared in a few threads. And that is that quite often we see ATC people claiming they expect to see different things from the standards notified in the relevant ATC and pilot documentation. For example people saying they expect to see a standard rate of 1500fpm (whose standard ?? it's not a published one). Or people saying that they are aware that a new level clearance cancels a previous restriction, but they expect the pilot still to do it. If they are basing separation on things they expect to see, rather than on the things which the regulations and procedures mandate, then I fear their technique is setting them up for a fall one day. There is only one way to be sure and that is to know what the procedures say, and if you require something different then positively specify it.
I agree wholeheartedly about the FMC gap. It is something I was looking at a while back but the project was overtaken by events. Perhaps it is well worth dusting off and resurrecting again.
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Excuse me if anybody said anything similar to what I am about to say, but I couldn't stomach much more than a page and a bit of this. I started reading this thread with great interest, but I was sadden by some of the comments I've read from both sides.
As a pilot, I have great respect for ATC.
Funny old world...
I've learnt a bit today.
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Hi BOAC;
I understand your frustration. But I think that most of us do give when ready <G>, when we can and it is minority who do not.
As to the descent. If I give you lower. I consider 500 fpm a float down. When I give a descent, I and many of us expect an aircraft to come down like it was the crews decision to come down <G>.
If I am getting you down, it is either for traffic, to miss some other airspace, procedural, or just trying to get you down where a 250 knot speed restriction means something <G>.
regards
I understand your frustration. But I think that most of us do give when ready <G>, when we can and it is minority who do not.
As to the descent. If I give you lower. I consider 500 fpm a float down. When I give a descent, I and many of us expect an aircraft to come down like it was the crews decision to come down <G>.
If I am getting you down, it is either for traffic, to miss some other airspace, procedural, or just trying to get you down where a 250 knot speed restriction means something <G>.
regards
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Not really frustration, Scott, consider it 'eagerness' to get both sides of the microphone understanding each other's problems. We had a fair bit of success a while back with the 'LGW arrivals' thread in learning such (not so much with 'LGW departures') and I hope this will do the same with 'descents'. In conversation in the pub last night it seems there may be more queries from UK pilots on US descent profiles which I hope they will raise here (my horizons are short-haul Europe only).
PPR (3 above) highlights discrepancies on expected descent profiles which should be explored too?
PPR (3 above) highlights discrepancies on expected descent profiles which should be explored too?
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Just my tuppenceworth:
"Descend" means NOW;
"Descend when ready" means just that!
It is also worth reiterating an early point which got swallowed up:
If you ask for descent and are given it, then DESCEND. Don't sit there for another 10 miles waiting for the FMS to reach TOD and then wander down. In many of the busy sectors such as Clacton, your request for descent will mean that the ATCO will make a plan for you and the other aircraft based upon you descending when you ask for it, maybe ducking under another aircraft which was borderline for descent before you but now will be subject to your descent. If you mean "We would like descent clearance to start down in 15 miles" then make that clear. You are pilots, not computer operators, after all!! Fly the aircraft, not the computer.
With regard to the "Can we descend at 500 FPM if you give us early descent until we reach the profile" question: Well the minimum ROC/ROD in the UK AIP is 500 FPM so of course the answer is YES. Bear in mind, however, that if you are asked to descend early it is probably because we want you down so that we can also start descending other aircraft who need to be at the same level at the same point as you. If you all did it on the ideal profile then you would all reach the same point at the same time at the same level, and this is generally considered to be a BAD idea in ATC circles! Look at it another way: If you are given descent early, it is likely that you are being put ahead of other traffic, so it's GOOD thing!
"Descend" means NOW;
"Descend when ready" means just that!
It is also worth reiterating an early point which got swallowed up:
If you ask for descent and are given it, then DESCEND. Don't sit there for another 10 miles waiting for the FMS to reach TOD and then wander down. In many of the busy sectors such as Clacton, your request for descent will mean that the ATCO will make a plan for you and the other aircraft based upon you descending when you ask for it, maybe ducking under another aircraft which was borderline for descent before you but now will be subject to your descent. If you mean "We would like descent clearance to start down in 15 miles" then make that clear. You are pilots, not computer operators, after all!! Fly the aircraft, not the computer.
With regard to the "Can we descend at 500 FPM if you give us early descent until we reach the profile" question: Well the minimum ROC/ROD in the UK AIP is 500 FPM so of course the answer is YES. Bear in mind, however, that if you are asked to descend early it is probably because we want you down so that we can also start descending other aircraft who need to be at the same level at the same point as you. If you all did it on the ideal profile then you would all reach the same point at the same time at the same level, and this is generally considered to be a BAD idea in ATC circles! Look at it another way: If you are given descent early, it is likely that you are being put ahead of other traffic, so it's GOOD thing!
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why not come and see!!
Hardly ever see pilots. The fam flight scheme seems to be dead for now. Borrow a minibus and pop down to Swanwick, there are a few real operational controllers on duty most days, aswell as 753 support and management staff. Speaking for myself you would be very welcome.
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Hoover Pilot, I think you have it by George (sorry George). Here in sunny Scotland we sometimes have the capability for short routings, good constant climb and descent and, dare I say it, some chat but listen to how the freq is. AIP does say 500ft/m but if we are quiet, ask and you may help us figure out where your top of descent point is but be aware, we deal with multitypes. If the freq is busy though, do us a favour and listen out and act. We are, in my view, working about as well as we can in the present circumstances and thats good enough for me!
Just one grumble, seen notice of no jumpseats unless Company employees or Family unless written auth secured from senior company source. If we do not get to meet, learn, watch and understand the great toys you fly in. how can we help. No controller ever tried to hammer a captain to death but a Fedex employee managed it!!!!!!!!!!!
Just one grumble, seen notice of no jumpseats unless Company employees or Family unless written auth secured from senior company source. If we do not get to meet, learn, watch and understand the great toys you fly in. how can we help. No controller ever tried to hammer a captain to death but a Fedex employee managed it!!!!!!!!!!!
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BOAC;
Fair enough <G>... Just got done teaching a pilot class today. Rather fun too. Great class with a wide range of students. Some 100 hour newbies, some multi hour with fresh instrument ratings. Some who are instructors and one who works at SimuFlite and teaches the bigger corporate stuff. The one really fun one was a check airman for a B777 for American. Wish that all of my classes had that much diversity... Really wish that we would see more part 135 and part 121 crews here...
Full day with a half of day of classroom, then half a day on the controlroom floor and in the simulator letting all the pilots take there chance with a headset and try to pry the aircraft apart. Lots of fun <G>...
regards
Fair enough <G>... Just got done teaching a pilot class today. Rather fun too. Great class with a wide range of students. Some 100 hour newbies, some multi hour with fresh instrument ratings. Some who are instructors and one who works at SimuFlite and teaches the bigger corporate stuff. The one really fun one was a check airman for a B777 for American. Wish that all of my classes had that much diversity... Really wish that we would see more part 135 and part 121 crews here...
Full day with a half of day of classroom, then half a day on the controlroom floor and in the simulator letting all the pilots take there chance with a headset and try to pry the aircraft apart. Lots of fun <G>...
regards
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ANY ATC GUYS HELP!!
I just wanted to hear a really straight and easy answer from an ATC guy or girl! May sound like a really silly question! If I am told to
"descend FL200 level 45 miles before Bovvingdon"
Does this mean:
a) Start descent NOW and there is a level restriction to be met so adjust rate of descent accordingly. But actuall strt descent now to avacate that level. or.......
b) Descend when I am ready to meet that level restriction. Eg maybe 5 mins or so!
Hope this can be answered straight - just ATC guys please as I'm really not interested in a hundred pilots own "opinions"!!
Cheers!
"descend FL200 level 45 miles before Bovvingdon"
Does this mean:
a) Start descent NOW and there is a level restriction to be met so adjust rate of descent accordingly. But actuall strt descent now to avacate that level. or.......
b) Descend when I am ready to meet that level restriction. Eg maybe 5 mins or so!
Hope this can be answered straight - just ATC guys please as I'm really not interested in a hundred pilots own "opinions"!!
Cheers!
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Flymeboy, as answered in your other thread, its a), descend NOW. If it was at your descretion, you would have been told 'descend when ready FL200'. The level restriction is given as it has to be, and then fully complied with for noise abaitment (big bang) procedures. It doesn't mean level off exactly 45nm b4 BNN (although thats fine), but you must be level by 45nm b4 BNN.
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"Scandis at nemos, FL200, 300 indicated for straight in 23"
As I say, it is a while since I went to GVA (sadly!) and I'm not sure where Nemos is as we don't go that way. It could be that they can keep a higher rate of descent longer than BA can?
"I've also on several occasions had BA RJs refuse to turn over the Jura until out of FL80"
Again, rusty on 23 SIDS, but there is a restriction (FL70+ at PAS before setting course, from memory?) Maybe this is the problem? Perhaps the RJs could help?
As I say, it is a while since I went to GVA (sadly!) and I'm not sure where Nemos is as we don't go that way. It could be that they can keep a higher rate of descent longer than BA can?
"I've also on several occasions had BA RJs refuse to turn over the Jura until out of FL80"
Again, rusty on 23 SIDS, but there is a restriction (FL70+ at PAS before setting course, from memory?) Maybe this is the problem? Perhaps the RJs could help?
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BOAC,
Ref the Scandis - simply a comment that they always arrive very hot and very high - I actually meant to say Vadar - which is around 35nm final for 23 (only used for arrivals from Zurich direction) but always seem to get it down. Of course, we won't bring "stabilised approach" into it!!!
Ref: the SIDS, you're absolutely correct, "Right turn after passing PAS but not before 7000ft QNH to intercept....." pretty much the same off 05 - the thing is that again, the only company that regularly refuses to turn before 80 is BA (RJ's only, in my experience). It's not really a complaint, more a comment on an apparrent difference in SOPs.
Thanks again for the replies - you really should try to get back to this part of the world now and agin - the Guinness is not bad at all !!
:
Ref the Scandis - simply a comment that they always arrive very hot and very high - I actually meant to say Vadar - which is around 35nm final for 23 (only used for arrivals from Zurich direction) but always seem to get it down. Of course, we won't bring "stabilised approach" into it!!!
Ref: the SIDS, you're absolutely correct, "Right turn after passing PAS but not before 7000ft QNH to intercept....." pretty much the same off 05 - the thing is that again, the only company that regularly refuses to turn before 80 is BA (RJ's only, in my experience). It's not really a complaint, more a comment on an apparrent difference in SOPs.
Thanks again for the replies - you really should try to get back to this part of the world now and agin - the Guinness is not bad at all !!
:
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Dear Colleagues,
I would have thought that "descend now" or "descend at pilot's discretion" would be less ambiguous than "descend". Given the latter instruction in UK airspace, I always query it if I (or aircraft) do not wish to descend straight away. Most Continental ATC centres however do mean descend now when they say descend, so I don't even bother asking.
In my experience a few pilots I have flown with have a poor attitude to ATC and treat them as subordinates. A good example is weather avoidance, where these guys will Tell ATC they are going right 10 degrees" rather than asking or even offering a choice of turn as I always do if I can.
UK ATC are the best in the world in my opinion, nobody else can shift as many aircraft through such crowded airspace.
Keep up the good work guys,
ATB, PTC
I would have thought that "descend now" or "descend at pilot's discretion" would be less ambiguous than "descend". Given the latter instruction in UK airspace, I always query it if I (or aircraft) do not wish to descend straight away. Most Continental ATC centres however do mean descend now when they say descend, so I don't even bother asking.
In my experience a few pilots I have flown with have a poor attitude to ATC and treat them as subordinates. A good example is weather avoidance, where these guys will Tell ATC they are going right 10 degrees" rather than asking or even offering a choice of turn as I always do if I can.
UK ATC are the best in the world in my opinion, nobody else can shift as many aircraft through such crowded airspace.
Keep up the good work guys,
ATB, PTC
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Haven't had much of a chance to look in lately (all these tours ).
A few observations:
As far as I'm concerned, 'Descend' means 'Now' unless stated otherwise. So I won't be querying it automatically (in the same way that I don't habitually ask if standard speeds apply, see earlier thread!).
However, if it is a route that I am very familiar with, and experience suggests that the clearance is always "When Ready" then I will query it unless (a) Controller workload is obviously high or (b) I'm planning on descend pretty soon anyway.
Almost invariably, when I've asked, the response has been "When ready".
Thinking about it, I guess the quickest way to query is to modify the readback.
Instead of saying:
"Descend FL XX, - is that now or at our discretion?"
or just "Descend FL XX" and wondering,
How about "Descend now FL XX"
That way it only adds one short word to the readback. In effect the crew would be saying "We think you mean now, and are acting on that basis, if you don't then let us know."
The controller can ignore the extra word if workload does not permit, but at the same time it is a small prompt if the controller intended, but neglected for whatever reason, to say "When Ready".
As far as RODs, then I would try and use as low a rate of descent as possible, i.e. 500 fpm, any time I'm being forced below the ideal profile. However, airmanship suggests that there is a reason you have asked for the descent. So, in the absence of any qualifiers like "Good rate through FL XX" or "Expedite through FL XX" I use a reasonable rate for the first 1,000 feet and then slacken it off.
On the GVA SIDs, I'm not aware of any reason to refuse to turn once that 7,000 feet condition is met. However, when we used to fly the noise profile reaching 7,000 by PAS wasn't really a problem (since V2+10 to something like 4,700' ???) but now that we accelerate at 1,000 AGL then you seem to arrive at PAS below 7,000' and are therefore constrained. (I'm no performance guru, thats just the way it seems to work out).
CPB
).A few observations:
As far as I'm concerned, 'Descend' means 'Now' unless stated otherwise. So I won't be querying it automatically (in the same way that I don't habitually ask if standard speeds apply, see earlier thread!).
However, if it is a route that I am very familiar with, and experience suggests that the clearance is always "When Ready" then I will query it unless (a) Controller workload is obviously high or (b) I'm planning on descend pretty soon anyway.
Almost invariably, when I've asked, the response has been "When ready".
Thinking about it, I guess the quickest way to query is to modify the readback.
Instead of saying:
"Descend FL XX, - is that now or at our discretion?"
or just "Descend FL XX" and wondering,
How about "Descend now FL XX"
That way it only adds one short word to the readback. In effect the crew would be saying "We think you mean now, and are acting on that basis, if you don't then let us know."
The controller can ignore the extra word if workload does not permit, but at the same time it is a small prompt if the controller intended, but neglected for whatever reason, to say "When Ready".
As far as RODs, then I would try and use as low a rate of descent as possible, i.e. 500 fpm, any time I'm being forced below the ideal profile. However, airmanship suggests that there is a reason you have asked for the descent. So, in the absence of any qualifiers like "Good rate through FL XX" or "Expedite through FL XX" I use a reasonable rate for the first 1,000 feet and then slacken it off.
On the GVA SIDs, I'm not aware of any reason to refuse to turn once that 7,000 feet condition is met. However, when we used to fly the noise profile reaching 7,000 by PAS wasn't really a problem (since V2+10 to something like 4,700' ???) but now that we accelerate at 1,000 AGL then you seem to arrive at PAS below 7,000' and are therefore constrained. (I'm no performance guru, thats just the way it seems to work out).
CPB
