Interesting story on BBC
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Have to support Aunt Rimmer on this one. After all, sectors from down south are gradually being moved up north precisely because Scottish can handle them without the major delays imposed down south. Just watch the flow rates jump on North Sea next year!
Also a false impression that it is only a few aircraft, it is busy, and without the restrictions. Would be even busier if the flights could get through London area.
And don't forget the Ocean, that's also at Prestwick. Numbers rising again, no radar. Gets busy there too. No longer an easy unit to validate at, just ask those that haven't made it. That was unheard of 10-15 years ago.
Forget unit pay differentials. The ones we already have between ATCO2 and 3 stations cause enough problems as it is. Do we really want to create more division. I thought we were a team!
Also a false impression that it is only a few aircraft, it is busy, and without the restrictions. Would be even busier if the flights could get through London area.
And don't forget the Ocean, that's also at Prestwick. Numbers rising again, no radar. Gets busy there too. No longer an easy unit to validate at, just ask those that haven't made it. That was unheard of 10-15 years ago.
Forget unit pay differentials. The ones we already have between ATCO2 and 3 stations cause enough problems as it is. Do we really want to create more division. I thought we were a team!
Time merchant
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Re: moving down south
I was "moved down south" after 14 years controlling up north (or "in the provinces" as management quaintly called it at the time) but spending 50% of my salary on a mortgage was not my idea of earning a living.
I would love to be working at Heathrow, that was my posting and somewhere I had always wanted to work, but when the sums don't add up what can you do but look elsewhere.
When house prices in the South-East are rising by as much as 5% per month its hard to imagine any pay deal attracting anyone who is not already resident in that part of the country.
My only alternative was to keep moving South- to Brussels! A bit drastic I know, and I really miss the controlling (but not the U.K. strangely enough).
As has been said, its a free market now, so go where the best conditions are.
My suggestion: you should all learn Spanish and b*gger off to Spain....
Flowman
I was "moved down south" after 14 years controlling up north (or "in the provinces" as management quaintly called it at the time) but spending 50% of my salary on a mortgage was not my idea of earning a living.
I would love to be working at Heathrow, that was my posting and somewhere I had always wanted to work, but when the sums don't add up what can you do but look elsewhere.
When house prices in the South-East are rising by as much as 5% per month its hard to imagine any pay deal attracting anyone who is not already resident in that part of the country.
My only alternative was to keep moving South- to Brussels! A bit drastic I know, and I really miss the controlling (but not the U.K. strangely enough).
As has been said, its a free market now, so go where the best conditions are.
My suggestion: you should all learn Spanish and b*gger off to Spain....
Flowman
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The only way that we at Swanwick will be working overtime is if the rest of the country vote for the deal on offer. I can count on one hand the number of people who have said they will vote for this deal. The reason for this is NOT the 10% pay rise but the strings attached. It will be so easy for the rest of the country to vote and sit back and watch things happen down here. Some people will do the additional duties but i suspect most will refuse point blank or will not do so until the price is right-after all we all have our own price to do things.
On the subject of nights. Well I'm afraid the good times are long gone down here. Every one rostered HAS to work BOTH nights-that's just the way it is now.
Aunt Rimmer you need to come into the real world. You are a mobile grade and should be prepared to move if neccessary should the operation require it-it's not nice at the time(I've done it) but you do get used to it. I see we've just had a lady posted from ScATCC and she wanted to come down here. I understand there are also a number at MaCC who have posting requests in. And you shoot down your own argument when you say you have a good standard of living on your salary up there. That is exactly why there should be a MAJOR difference between the salaries at the 2 units.
Yes sectors are being moved to other units but let's be clear so far they are the quietest sectors that we have on the unit. I know that S29 has kicked up a gear but I see that restrictions are rarely imposed by either MaCC or ScACC- draw your own conclusions from this one.
All units are busy at this time of the year but something has to be done to attract staff to the units which have the shortages-unpalatable but true.
flowman.
Hola. Working on the Espanol already. Adios
On the subject of nights. Well I'm afraid the good times are long gone down here. Every one rostered HAS to work BOTH nights-that's just the way it is now.
Aunt Rimmer you need to come into the real world. You are a mobile grade and should be prepared to move if neccessary should the operation require it-it's not nice at the time(I've done it) but you do get used to it. I see we've just had a lady posted from ScATCC and she wanted to come down here. I understand there are also a number at MaCC who have posting requests in. And you shoot down your own argument when you say you have a good standard of living on your salary up there. That is exactly why there should be a MAJOR difference between the salaries at the 2 units.
Yes sectors are being moved to other units but let's be clear so far they are the quietest sectors that we have on the unit. I know that S29 has kicked up a gear but I see that restrictions are rarely imposed by either MaCC or ScACC- draw your own conclusions from this one.
All units are busy at this time of the year but something has to be done to attract staff to the units which have the shortages-unpalatable but true.
flowman.
Hola. Working on the Espanol already. Adios
Last edited by 250 kts; 8th Aug 2002 at 15:30.
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ZIP250
You may not, but your colleagues at most NATS units do, some in the comfort of their own homes.
If rostering was improved so that this was eliminated it would provide the equivelant of a lot of extra controller hours without asking controllers to work extra shifts. That is an inescapable fact.
We don't sleep on night duties.
If rostering was improved so that this was eliminated it would provide the equivelant of a lot of extra controller hours without asking controllers to work extra shifts. That is an inescapable fact.
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dontshootme. You really show your lack of knowledge/ignorance on the subject.
The cause of most of the delays at present is at Swanwick purely due to staff shortages and was forseeable by some 5/6 years ago. Well I can tell you that the night manning is as close to the wire as is possible and that is with ALL staff working ALL of BOTH nights. It only takes one person to be sick on a night and this often leads to closure of sectors. Indeed if more staff were to be available on nights then we wouldn't be in the crazy situation of having to re-route traffic out of the London FIR.
It still may be the case that staff at some units do get some sleep on nights-but don't long haul crews do so as well? Would you prefer to have controllers who have had no sleep at all controlling you at 0600 into LHR or someone who maybe has had a couple of hours nap?
It is an inescapeable fact as you put it that NATS has allowed in excess of 3000 days in lieu to accumulate at Swanwick alone and have no provision for the staff to take the time owing to them. So when you start criticising the working practices amongst the controllers,just have a look at what they have already given to the organisation first.
The cause of most of the delays at present is at Swanwick purely due to staff shortages and was forseeable by some 5/6 years ago. Well I can tell you that the night manning is as close to the wire as is possible and that is with ALL staff working ALL of BOTH nights. It only takes one person to be sick on a night and this often leads to closure of sectors. Indeed if more staff were to be available on nights then we wouldn't be in the crazy situation of having to re-route traffic out of the London FIR.
It still may be the case that staff at some units do get some sleep on nights-but don't long haul crews do so as well? Would you prefer to have controllers who have had no sleep at all controlling you at 0600 into LHR or someone who maybe has had a couple of hours nap?
It is an inescapeable fact as you put it that NATS has allowed in excess of 3000 days in lieu to accumulate at Swanwick alone and have no provision for the staff to take the time owing to them. So when you start criticising the working practices amongst the controllers,just have a look at what they have already given to the organisation first.
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250 kts
Are you saying that your operation is less safe because you don't get a sleep at night?
I'm not talking about someone getting their head down during a quiet spell. I'm talking about those who go home after half a shift, or who come in at 2 or 3 am to replace them, and those who don't come in at all.
It still may be the case that staff at some units do get some sleep on nights-but don't long haul crews do so as well? Would you prefer to have controllers who have had no sleep at all controlling you at 0600 into LHR or someone who maybe has had a couple of hours nap?
I'm not talking about someone getting their head down during a quiet spell. I'm talking about those who go home after half a shift, or who come in at 2 or 3 am to replace them, and those who don't come in at all.
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2six4. You are right in that that should one choose not to do anything then they don't have to. I should have used the phrase "PERCEIVED strings".
Let there be no doubt that there will be people who will volunteer to work this overtime-because that is what it is,and both sides will come to rely on this as a normal part of Working Practices. It will need to be very carefully regulated to ensure that we do not have the shambles which surrounded the OCT deal last year. And let's not forget that the going price for a days' work has fallen by around 40%. If we really think this will end in 2003 then we are living on another planet. indeed there will be no significant increase in numbers for at least 2 years and probably longer than that-unless the Flexible Retirement scheme is withdrawn.
The part of the deal relating to retired ATCOs being allowed back is worrying as this could lead to a potential blockage on promotion. There is little enough job progression for ATCOs as it is and this could make it even worse.
I suspect and hope that the deal will just just be carried but that few if any work the overtime.
Management also say that the aspiration of controllers will be self-funding. If that isn't a guarded way of saying that jobs could go I don't know what is. They may not be ATCO ones but jobs all the same. And if not jbs then certainly a threat to our T&Cs.
dontshoot.
I think it stands to reason that any operation is less safe if the staff have potentially had no sleep for approaching 24 hours. I may be wrong but hey I'm only human. I know that I certainly don't function particularly well at 0630 on the 2nd night. Why do airlines have a 3 man crew for flights over a certain time limit-safety or just to give 'em a free trip to LAX/SFO etc-I think the former!!
I will reiterate that at Swanwick,which is responsible for most of the delays at present,staff work all of both nights and just one going sick often leads to airspace being closed. This is a FACT. Yes there may be units which still have a surplus on nights but Swanwick ain't one of them.
I look forward to an acknowledgement of this and if you have any bright ideas on how better to keep a 24 hour operation going on the shoe-string numbers we have let's all hear it.
Let there be no doubt that there will be people who will volunteer to work this overtime-because that is what it is,and both sides will come to rely on this as a normal part of Working Practices. It will need to be very carefully regulated to ensure that we do not have the shambles which surrounded the OCT deal last year. And let's not forget that the going price for a days' work has fallen by around 40%. If we really think this will end in 2003 then we are living on another planet. indeed there will be no significant increase in numbers for at least 2 years and probably longer than that-unless the Flexible Retirement scheme is withdrawn.
The part of the deal relating to retired ATCOs being allowed back is worrying as this could lead to a potential blockage on promotion. There is little enough job progression for ATCOs as it is and this could make it even worse.
I suspect and hope that the deal will just just be carried but that few if any work the overtime.
Management also say that the aspiration of controllers will be self-funding. If that isn't a guarded way of saying that jobs could go I don't know what is. They may not be ATCO ones but jobs all the same. And if not jbs then certainly a threat to our T&Cs.
dontshoot.
I think it stands to reason that any operation is less safe if the staff have potentially had no sleep for approaching 24 hours. I may be wrong but hey I'm only human. I know that I certainly don't function particularly well at 0630 on the 2nd night. Why do airlines have a 3 man crew for flights over a certain time limit-safety or just to give 'em a free trip to LAX/SFO etc-I think the former!!
I will reiterate that at Swanwick,which is responsible for most of the delays at present,staff work all of both nights and just one going sick often leads to airspace being closed. This is a FACT. Yes there may be units which still have a surplus on nights but Swanwick ain't one of them.
I look forward to an acknowledgement of this and if you have any bright ideas on how better to keep a 24 hour operation going on the shoe-string numbers we have let's all hear it.
Last edited by 250 kts; 9th Aug 2002 at 17:07.
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Flowman, I don't know if I could cope with all that sun. After another British summer my skin now blisters under bright moonlight.
But northern Europe, hmmm. I never did see the atomium...
But northern Europe, hmmm. I never did see the atomium...
Time merchant
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Lieutenant Dan,
Try:
http://www.eurocontrol.be/jobs/index.html
and it is perfectly safe in Belgium (or Netherlands) for anyone with any kind of allergy to the sun.
Flowman
Try:
http://www.eurocontrol.be/jobs/index.html
and it is perfectly safe in Belgium (or Netherlands) for anyone with any kind of allergy to the sun.
Flowman
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Thanks for the website info, Flowman.
Eurocontrol is very appealing, once I can get over the apprehension of a move abroad. But I'm starting to move in that direction.
May be joining you in the wee countries before long.
Eurocontrol is very appealing, once I can get over the apprehension of a move abroad. But I'm starting to move in that direction.
May be joining you in the wee countries before long.
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250 kts
I would say that any ATCO who would be 24 hours without sleep at the end of a shift should be declaring themselves unfit to work.
Gary Hart was sentences to 5 years in prison for causing the Selby train crash through lack of sleep. Imagine what would happen if a controller caused or contributed to an accident for the same reason.
I accept and believe what you say about the hours worked at Swanwick. The point is that if the rostering was improved elsewhere then each unit could probably spare a few to be posted down to Swanwick to relieve the crisis down there.
As zerouali indicates, your only asking your colleagues to work their conditioned hours.
I think it stands to reason that any operation is less safe if the staff have potentially had no sleep for approaching 24 hours.
Gary Hart was sentences to 5 years in prison for causing the Selby train crash through lack of sleep. Imagine what would happen if a controller caused or contributed to an accident for the same reason.
I look forward to an acknowledgement of this and if you have any bright ideas on how better to keep a 24 hour operation going on the shoe-string numbers we have let's all hear it.
As zerouali indicates, your only asking your colleagues to work their conditioned hours.
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zerouali. I see from your past posts that most of them appear in the "wannabe" or ATC areas. Which are you??
If it is the latter then you would have no problem with relation to conditioned hours,and I say again, the staff at the unit which is the most under-staffed are now well and truly working ALL of their
conditioned hours.
And if you are a wannabe what is galling about our shift patterns to you and what does it have to do with you anyway???
You probably have never done a night shift in your life. If you had then you would know that it takes more than a pair of curtains to persuade the body to sleep when it doesn't want to. But thanks for the tip anyway
If it is the latter then you would have no problem with relation to conditioned hours,and I say again, the staff at the unit which is the most under-staffed are now well and truly working ALL of their
conditioned hours.
And if you are a wannabe what is galling about our shift patterns to you and what does it have to do with you anyway???
You probably have never done a night shift in your life. If you had then you would know that it takes more than a pair of curtains to persuade the body to sleep when it doesn't want to. But thanks for the tip anyway
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Vercingeteorix
You are obviously well placed in the arse end of beyond to comment on the simplicity of controlling today in the UK
Let market forces decide. If it costs 10k+ more to employ a controller at Swanwick, then why should the airlines pay that extra?
Surely employing a lower paid controller at ScACC makes economic sense - hence the reason more sectors are moving north.
If we're not all careful they'll build a big centre in some third world slum and employ folk on the minimum wage .......
You are obviously well placed in the arse end of beyond to comment on the simplicity of controlling today in the UK
Let market forces decide. If it costs 10k+ more to employ a controller at Swanwick, then why should the airlines pay that extra?
Surely employing a lower paid controller at ScACC makes economic sense - hence the reason more sectors are moving north.
If we're not all careful they'll build a big centre in some third world slum and employ folk on the minimum wage .......
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zerouali.
The comments I reacted to were from someone stating that people not working their rostered hours was causing the delays to the customer. My point was that most of the delays are caused by Swanwick and at that unit staff ARE WORKING THEIR ROSTERED HOURS.
I assume you are not at LACC and therefore would almost certainly NOT BE working all your hours. Sorry if this is incorrect as it may be a rash assumption.
What unit are you at-the profile doesn't say???
The comments I reacted to were from someone stating that people not working their rostered hours was causing the delays to the customer. My point was that most of the delays are caused by Swanwick and at that unit staff ARE WORKING THEIR ROSTERED HOURS.
I assume you are not at LACC and therefore would almost certainly NOT BE working all your hours. Sorry if this is incorrect as it may be a rash assumption.
What unit are you at-the profile doesn't say???
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250
Can you think of a faster way to get more validated ATCOs at Swanwick than to take qualified and experienced people from units where they are surplus to requirement? Surely they will validate quicker and easier than a bunch of newbies straight out of training?
Can you think of a faster way to get more validated ATCOs at Swanwick than to take qualified and experienced people from units where they are surplus to requirement? Surely they will validate quicker and easier than a bunch of newbies straight out of training?