a couple of questions......
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a couple of questions......
I'm doing part2 of selection next month and i've been swatting the booklet that was sent. there are a couple of points i don't understand and would appreciate a bit of guidance:
1. if class D and E are controlled airspace does that mean all aicraft have to be under radar control or can ris/ras be applied?
2. it says heathrow and the channel isl control zones are class A airspace and yet other zones are class d- why is this? and again what level of service must aircraft be under?
3. again to do with airspace classification and services. what class are CTA's and TMA's and what service must aircraft be under?
4. finally, do atco's always assign levels according to semi-circular or quadrantal levels or is this system only used by aircraft not under a service.
Apologies if these are dummy questions but thanks in advance.
1. if class D and E are controlled airspace does that mean all aicraft have to be under radar control or can ris/ras be applied?
2. it says heathrow and the channel isl control zones are class A airspace and yet other zones are class d- why is this? and again what level of service must aircraft be under?
3. again to do with airspace classification and services. what class are CTA's and TMA's and what service must aircraft be under?
4. finally, do atco's always assign levels according to semi-circular or quadrantal levels or is this system only used by aircraft not under a service.
Apologies if these are dummy questions but thanks in advance.
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1. RAS and RIS are only available outside CAS.
2. Don't know. It's a question I have often asked about the London CTR. I suppose Class A gives more protection as VFR flight is prohibited (SVFR can still be approved). In Class D VFR flights can be authorised.
3. TMAs are variable (London/Manchester class A, Belfast class E and Scottish D&E!), CTAs are normally class A or D.
4. Semi-circular/quadrantal rules apply to all IFR flight above the transition altitude outside CAS unless complying with ATC instructions. In other words, inside CAS or when under ATC you may well be allocated different levels. However, as a controller, I would suggest it is good practice to comply with this rule whenever possible.
Standing by to be shot down!!
2. Don't know. It's a question I have often asked about the London CTR. I suppose Class A gives more protection as VFR flight is prohibited (SVFR can still be approved). In Class D VFR flights can be authorised.
3. TMAs are variable (London/Manchester class A, Belfast class E and Scottish D&E!), CTAs are normally class A or D.
4. Semi-circular/quadrantal rules apply to all IFR flight above the transition altitude outside CAS unless complying with ATC instructions. In other words, inside CAS or when under ATC you may well be allocated different levels. However, as a controller, I would suggest it is good practice to comply with this rule whenever possible.
Standing by to be shot down!!
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 30th Jul 2002 at 16:31.
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class d airspace : ifr under radar control service, vfr under approach control -
class e airspace : ifr under radar control service, vfr can operate WITHOUT reference to atc if they want to. therefore radar need to take avoiding action with the ifr's against these unknown contacts, but vfr can get a service from atc if they want one
confused? - you will be!!
as far as i know within the uk class e is only in the scottish tma.
prof
class e airspace : ifr under radar control service, vfr can operate WITHOUT reference to atc if they want to. therefore radar need to take avoiding action with the ifr's against these unknown contacts, but vfr can get a service from atc if they want one
confused? - you will be!!
as far as i know within the uk class e is only in the scottish tma.
prof
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professor yaffle,
While generally IFR flights in Class D and E airspace will be under a Radar Control Service I can not find any reference to say that they have to be (unless of course you wish to provide radar separation), which is what the original question is asking. What about Radar Failure?
While generally IFR flights in Class D and E airspace will be under a Radar Control Service I can not find any reference to say that they have to be (unless of course you wish to provide radar separation), which is what the original question is asking. What about Radar Failure?
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did not know that crotalus - cheers
hoolgan - ifr have to follow atc instructions in class d and e and it is a radar conrol service, vfr in class e do not have to be in receipt of any service, and do not have to talk to atc unless they want to. even under a fis in class e vfr do not have to follow instructions from atc although good airmanship would suggest that talking to atc and following the requests in class e would be best practice
in the event of radar failure standard proc sep is applied as soon as poss
prof
hoolgan - ifr have to follow atc instructions in class d and e and it is a radar conrol service, vfr in class e do not have to be in receipt of any service, and do not have to talk to atc unless they want to. even under a fis in class e vfr do not have to follow instructions from atc although good airmanship would suggest that talking to atc and following the requests in class e would be best practice
in the event of radar failure standard proc sep is applied as soon as poss
prof
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yaffle,
The original question was do aircraft operating in Class D and E airspace HAVE to be under Radar Control. The answer is no, irrespective or whether they are operating IFR or VFR.
MATS PT 1 clearly states that Approach and Area Control units shall provide their respective types of Control Service with or without the use of radar. No where does it say that IFR flights must be under a Radar Control Service.
What happens when Transfer of Control takes place to the Aerodrome controller, he/she by definition can not provide a Radar Service? What about when the radar is off for routine maintainance and there is no back up?
With respect to VFR flights, they can be placed under Radar Control and not just be receiving an Approach Control Service. My unit will quite often vector VFR traffic for an instrument approach under VFR when requested.
The original question was do aircraft operating in Class D and E airspace HAVE to be under Radar Control. The answer is no, irrespective or whether they are operating IFR or VFR.
MATS PT 1 clearly states that Approach and Area Control units shall provide their respective types of Control Service with or without the use of radar. No where does it say that IFR flights must be under a Radar Control Service.
What happens when Transfer of Control takes place to the Aerodrome controller, he/she by definition can not provide a Radar Service? What about when the radar is off for routine maintainance and there is no back up?
With respect to VFR flights, they can be placed under Radar Control and not just be receiving an Approach Control Service. My unit will quite often vector VFR traffic for an instrument approach under VFR when requested.
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ok but the question was it radar control or ris/ras, therefore it is a rcs for ifr in class d and e.
yes if no radar it is procedural control for the ifr but vfr do not have to comply with atc or even talk in class e, radar or no
and yes of course you can give rcs to vfr, provided they can maintain vmc
prof
yes if no radar it is procedural control for the ifr but vfr do not have to comply with atc or even talk in class e, radar or no
and yes of course you can give rcs to vfr, provided they can maintain vmc
prof
