ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Willo hold

Old 30th Aug 2018, 20:56
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,229
Willo hold

A question that came up recently is the Willo hold one minute legs or a distance of 5.1nm legs?
Having looked at Lido, Jeppessen, and the UK AIP there doesn’t seem to be a clear answer.
tubby linton is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 10:07
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,331
Looking at the AIP, the reason seems to be because of the different type of arrival. For a standard arrival or procedural approach the limiting DME is there. However the charts that don't mention it are the "new" RNAV 1 arrivals, which would make sense.
Right Way Up is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 10:37
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,229
There needs to be some consistency as to what to put in the fmgc.
tubby linton is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 11:15
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,331
If you are flying a "standard" arrival v "Rnav 1" arrival, there is not likely to be consistency as they are different sorts of arrival and the same waypoint will be depicted differently. I guess you haven't flown to many German airfields where quite often the same SID designator can be RNAV or conventional.

Basically I use the hold on the chart that I am using for arrival....if its an RNAV 1 arrival I don't use the 5.1d limit (as the chart does not have it and the hold should be flown more accurately), and if I am using the standard arrival and the chart say 5.1d I use that.
Right Way Up is online now  
Old 31st Aug 2018, 11:54
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 270
Devil

Just put it in the box, check it looks right and then fly it.
OutsideCAS is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2018, 20:57
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,229
So baxk to my original question, do ATC mind if I am flying DME legs or timed ones ?
tubby linton is online now  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 16:46
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto
Age: 52
Posts: 518
Aircraft holding patterns used to be quite varied, less so now. But unless you're going way outside what's normally observed, ATC won't likely care or challenge.
Way back when, there were several aircraft going around the DAYNE hold waiting to approach MAN and in a quiet moment a "Nigelesque" voice asks "Approach, this is 2 November, the chap below us, what hold is he flying?"
cossack is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 16:55
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 983
Tubby,
The wisdom of my ATCO son and his wife ( the grumpy antipodean! ) with 30 years experience of that sector between them is:- ATCOs don't care as long as you stay in the holding pattern!
Brian 48nav is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 17:18
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 283
Holds in the UK are 90 second legs unless otherwise specified on the hold chart, I'll try and find the official link to where that is written.......
zonoma is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 17:25
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 283
It says on the approach chart here in the general information, point 5, the hold is limited to MID VOR at DME 22nm, so I'd say that means this one isn't timed legs, but this is just the RNAV-5 arrival and the equivalent RNAV-1 STAR doesn't have anything mentioned on the chart so I'd say this one is a bit "muddy".

Found the enroute holding document in the AIP here that lists all the established enroute holds and whether they are 1 minute, 1.5 minute or distance based legs, but as WILLO is an approach hold is isn't included.

Last edited by zonoma; 2nd Sep 2018 at 17:37.
zonoma is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2018, 19:07
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,331
with 30 years experience of that sector between them is:- ATCOs don't care as long as you stay in the holding pattern!
Pretty much sums it up

TBH I think the 22d MID is a limit to stop pre FMGC aircraft drifting towards the TIMBA hold.

As I mentioned in a previous post.........at LGW, if the STAR is a standard STAR it will have the 5.1 dme limit. If it is the "new" RNAV arrival it won't mention DME limits because they expect an RNAV 1 aircraft to stay within the protected area with a 1 minute hold.
Right Way Up is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.