DATIS/DCL UK
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DATIS/DCL UK
Could somebody explain why there are so few UK airports with DATIS and DCL, I know the London Airports have them but there are several very busy regional airports (including Scotland) that don’t. It amazes me when flying to some rather sleepy airports abroad that they have the facility but when flying around the UK in some of the busiest airspace in the world that one of us still has to get the ATIS and do battle on the tower frequency for clearance. This is not a point of laziness in fact it’s quite nice to listen and jot down the ATIS sometimes but generally when flying over the UK we are nearly always in the descent when in rage to get the ATIS and this means someone has to go heads down and listen to BOX 2. In the cruise this is no issue but to constantly do it in the descent when it’s critcal for both pilots to hear and check any level changes is becoming a challenge. Every sector seams so busy now and surely in this day and age we can have this faculty at every UK airport? It’s also a battle at some airports to get a clearance for anything on the ground and DCL is a Fantastic facility. I can only assume it’s a budget issue? However I once asked a UK tower controller if they were expecting DATIS DCL any time soon and they did not know what I was taking about!!! I know Somerset has only just got electricity but come on....
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"do battle on the tower frequency for clearance".
That's because the Aerodrome operator/ANSP hasn't provided a GMC/Delivery position, where there is an obvious need for one.
That's because the Aerodrome operator/ANSP hasn't provided a GMC/Delivery position, where there is an obvious need for one.
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"Every sector seems to be busy now".
Possibly due to a lack of qualified staff, meaning sectors are 'band-boxed', (joined-up), when they should in fact be split?
Possibly due to a lack of qualified staff, meaning sectors are 'band-boxed', (joined-up), when they should in fact be split?
As I've been retired for some time, I (like the controller in post #1) don't know exactly what 'DATIS DCL' stands for although I could make an inspired guess; can anyone enlighten me?
Thread Starter
Digital ATIS
Digital Clearance
We press a couple of buttons on The ACARS system and get the ATIS or Departure clearance sent to the aircraft ACARS system to either view or normally for us we print it off. Saves time, is less prone to errors and is much safer because both pilots remai on the active frequency during the descent. We already receive all airport VOLMET reports by ACARS and have done for many years. With the DATIS we can set it to auto update and when conditions are marginal or their are airport facility issues it’s a very timely heads up. The Digital clearance speaks for its self, it keeps RT chatter down and is less prone to errors and it’s faster and more useful for us as only one pilot needs to present to request it but both can then read and check it.
Digital Clearance
We press a couple of buttons on The ACARS system and get the ATIS or Departure clearance sent to the aircraft ACARS system to either view or normally for us we print it off. Saves time, is less prone to errors and is much safer because both pilots remai on the active frequency during the descent. We already receive all airport VOLMET reports by ACARS and have done for many years. With the DATIS we can set it to auto update and when conditions are marginal or their are airport facility issues it’s a very timely heads up. The Digital clearance speaks for its self, it keeps RT chatter down and is less prone to errors and it’s faster and more useful for us as only one pilot needs to present to request it but both can then read and check it.
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In response to the OP, the simple answer is that the London airports (well, one in particular), for obvious reasons, tend to have better funding than elsewhere. In other countries airports are publically-funded and subsidised. In the UK airports are left to it themselves in a market where airlines demand lower and lower charges yet expect higher efficiency/better equipment, and the travelling public have become used to the fatally flawed, nay destructive business model of ever-lower-cost-fares-at-any-cost.
Things like DATIS cost money. ANSPs don't have it so it's passed on to the airport. Who have no money, so its passed on to the airlines... who won't pay it, so that's passed on to passengers... who won't pay the higher price. So things don't get done...
Things like DATIS cost money. ANSPs don't have it so it's passed on to the airport. Who have no money, so its passed on to the airlines... who won't pay it, so that's passed on to passengers... who won't pay the higher price. So things don't get done...
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Hear hear Pizza...
7 hour flight into a large airport in the Midlands and having to take the ATIS from Heathrow and Manchester and split the difference when it's snowing and right on NPA minimums is no fun.
You only pick up the ATIS on VHF as you are descending through the London TMA, flying with a new trainee who's sometimes 300 miles behind the aircraft.
Surely they could spend some of the money they saved bending the ILS when it rains on a simple D-ATIS.
7 hour flight into a large airport in the Midlands and having to take the ATIS from Heathrow and Manchester and split the difference when it's snowing and right on NPA minimums is no fun.
You only pick up the ATIS on VHF as you are descending through the London TMA, flying with a new trainee who's sometimes 300 miles behind the aircraft.
Surely they could spend some of the money they saved bending the ILS when it rains on a simple D-ATIS.
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"Simple" doesn't come in to it when airport management are faced with a 5-figure bill for hardware, installation, commissioning, SRG approval, ongoing maintenance & support etc. Unless you are called Jeremy Corbyn, contrary to popular opinion there's no magic money tree growing on any airfield in the British Isles (most of us would love those to exist as it would solve innumerable problems in life). Great kit, and I totally understand and support your wishes, but as said previously someone has to pay for it. Anyone fancy a whip-round?
Hear hear Pizza...
7 hour flight into a large airport in the Midlands and having to take the ATIS from Heathrow and Manchester and split the difference when it's snowing and right on NPA minimums is no fun.
You only pick up the ATIS on VHF as you are descending through the London TMA, flying with a new trainee who's sometimes 300 miles behind the aircraft.
Surely they could spend some of the money they saved bending the ILS when it rains on a simple D-ATIS.
7 hour flight into a large airport in the Midlands and having to take the ATIS from Heathrow and Manchester and split the difference when it's snowing and right on NPA minimums is no fun.
You only pick up the ATIS on VHF as you are descending through the London TMA, flying with a new trainee who's sometimes 300 miles behind the aircraft.
Surely they could spend some of the money they saved bending the ILS when it rains on a simple D-ATIS.
Sure you're tuning the correct one?
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Chevvron, yes I am sure thanks.
I can receive a D-ATIS on the ground 8000 miles away from destination, which combined with an up to date TAF can have a huge bearing on fuel and choice of alternate before I leave.
Conversely in the US they now have a single CPDLC login for the whole country, which generates your clearance and sends it directly to the aircraft when it is ready. If there is an amendment to our oceanic clearance, the whole new route can be directly uploaded into our FMS reducing workload and the chance for error.
As you say yourself you have been retired for a while and a modern flight-deck is a fully digital operation all over the world. My company (especially post MH370) knows instantly if I have a dodgy engine parameter, a smoke warning or even a change of route due to weather.
Telsboy I appreciate the sentiment about funding but these are basic things nowadays that sadly the UK is lagging far behind with and it's only seeing what the rest of the world has that you realise it. DATIS, DCL, ADS-B/C and even GLS approaches are the future and the maintenance of these modern systems is relatively little compared to the older kit.
When the midlands airport I referred to earlier closed indefinitely due to snow earlier in the year, the first we heard about it was from the passengers who were getting their news via Wifi onboard.
If you think installing a D-ATIS system is costly, then try a diversion with 600+ pax because you can't fly an ILS and are reliant on a minimal, changing cloud ceiling for a basic RNAV approach. Equally reducing the safety margin by descending through some of the busiest airspace in the world and having a level bust because one person is off air listening to how many birds are near the airfield.
I can receive a D-ATIS on the ground 8000 miles away from destination, which combined with an up to date TAF can have a huge bearing on fuel and choice of alternate before I leave.
Conversely in the US they now have a single CPDLC login for the whole country, which generates your clearance and sends it directly to the aircraft when it is ready. If there is an amendment to our oceanic clearance, the whole new route can be directly uploaded into our FMS reducing workload and the chance for error.
As you say yourself you have been retired for a while and a modern flight-deck is a fully digital operation all over the world. My company (especially post MH370) knows instantly if I have a dodgy engine parameter, a smoke warning or even a change of route due to weather.
Telsboy I appreciate the sentiment about funding but these are basic things nowadays that sadly the UK is lagging far behind with and it's only seeing what the rest of the world has that you realise it. DATIS, DCL, ADS-B/C and even GLS approaches are the future and the maintenance of these modern systems is relatively little compared to the older kit.
When the midlands airport I referred to earlier closed indefinitely due to snow earlier in the year, the first we heard about it was from the passengers who were getting their news via Wifi onboard.
If you think installing a D-ATIS system is costly, then try a diversion with 600+ pax because you can't fly an ILS and are reliant on a minimal, changing cloud ceiling for a basic RNAV approach. Equally reducing the safety margin by descending through some of the busiest airspace in the world and having a level bust because one person is off air listening to how many birds are near the airfield.
Thread Starter
Well that just about sums it up, we are lagging behind and these systems are now really the basics of infrastructure that should be in place in the modern ATC environment. And now the Spanish have started to get to grips with CPDLC in some sectors the future is certainly bright! My fear is that the people running some of these airports are just not familiar with what equipment is available and the potential improvements to operational efficiency and safety they offer. Some of our regional airports are bulging at the seams at rush hour and some have operational challenges with respect to approach facility runway length and weather. Being able to get the ATIS and monitor the updates well before top of descent is better than “a nice to have”. Maybe those of you who work in non DCL/DATIS ATC units could run it up the flag pole with your managers?
So we have a definite risk of confusion here with two entirely different systems supplying similar (but not exactly the same) information one being called D-ATIS and the other DATIS. A pilot who uses information from the wrong system in error might be held to blame if there is an incident and ATC has always tried to mitigate any errors caused by similar sounding systems; I used to sit on the NATS 'Communication Error Working Group' which tried to reduce the confusion in similar sounding phraseology
Quite a few airports in the UK operate a DATIS because with its low power requirement, the frequency can be shared.
As for D-ATIS, what is in it for the airport/ATC unit? There still has to be some way of inputting information to the system and this might need the same manpower requirement as ATIS or DATIS, so possibly no savings there.
So a new acronym needs to be found for this system which will not cause confusion; if today's operational controllers do not know what it is (according to the original posting) then airport operators should take a long hard look at the benefits of the system before installing it.
Quite a few airports in the UK operate a DATIS because with its low power requirement, the frequency can be shared.
As for D-ATIS, what is in it for the airport/ATC unit? There still has to be some way of inputting information to the system and this might need the same manpower requirement as ATIS or DATIS, so possibly no savings there.
So a new acronym needs to be found for this system which will not cause confusion; if today's operational controllers do not know what it is (according to the original posting) then airport operators should take a long hard look at the benefits of the system before installing it.
Thread Starter
I think you have got side tracked here it’s called digital ATIS and it’s avaialble at most large or busy Airports and has been for as long as I can remember. If we take the view that there is nothing in it for the airport then we could apply that analogy to many things they provide but are not essential. My general point is it’s rather like still using dial up internet rather than broadband it’s not essential but to be effient it helps. Progress is a great thing but we do still like to hang in to tradition in this country.
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As has been mentioned earlier, it is all down to funding and with the FAA still controlling the skies in the US, this will perhaps explain why datalink clearances were rolled out en masse.
Airfields that have independent ANSPs (such as the example from Eau de Boeing) will probably only install equipment for datalink weather and clearances, should it be required by regulation. A similar analogy are (often smaller) operators that see EFBs as an unnecessary cost, with the people making such decisions viewing such technology as 'nice to have' but not essential. Furthermore, another similarity is that the ones making these decisions, will most likely not be the ones directly benefiting from it.
As an aside, the guys and girls on the FIS frequencies at London and Scottish are a excellent source for information and when the weather is bad, they will have next to nothing in the way of G/A aircraft on the frequency. Therefore they will have far more time to get information that you might need, such as the actual ATIS, RVR trends, possible EATs and the like and all of this well before top of drop for anywhere in the Midlands, as used in this example.
Airfields that have independent ANSPs (such as the example from Eau de Boeing) will probably only install equipment for datalink weather and clearances, should it be required by regulation. A similar analogy are (often smaller) operators that see EFBs as an unnecessary cost, with the people making such decisions viewing such technology as 'nice to have' but not essential. Furthermore, another similarity is that the ones making these decisions, will most likely not be the ones directly benefiting from it.
As an aside, the guys and girls on the FIS frequencies at London and Scottish are a excellent source for information and when the weather is bad, they will have next to nothing in the way of G/A aircraft on the frequency. Therefore they will have far more time to get information that you might need, such as the actual ATIS, RVR trends, possible EATs and the like and all of this well before top of drop for anywhere in the Midlands, as used in this example.
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Chevvron, in terms of ATC and flight crew, the computer generated voice ATIS broadcast is just called ATIS now. No differentiation between computer generated or manually recorded.
Some manufacturers still refer to their computer generated voice ATIS systems as Digital ATIS, but it's dying out as it becomes the norm.
Some manufacturers still refer to their computer generated voice ATIS systems as Digital ATIS, but it's dying out as it becomes the norm.
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Telsboy I appreciate the sentiment about funding but these are basic things nowadays that sadly the UK is lagging far behind with and it's only seeing what the rest of the world has that you realise it. DATIS, DCL, ADS-B/C and even GLS approaches are the future and the maintenance of these modern systems is relatively little compared to the older kit.
Completely agree with your statement Re: the UK and infrastructure. Until airports and aviation generally are truly appreciated as critical national infrastructure and get the required investment they badly need. Same can be said of roads, telecomms, power, water, gas, etc. etc. etc. Instead everyone just wants to make money out of them and investment is at a pittance.
Yes it's a 'fact of life' at UK airports that whilst (say) the Fire Service gets new vehicles every so often as a matter of course, ATC re-equipment usually has to wait until the old kit is on its last legs.
In other countries with state funded ATC systems, the same doesn't necessarily apply.
In other countries with state funded ATC systems, the same doesn't necessarily apply.
