contact ground and the hold line
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Aberdeen, UK
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contact ground and the hold line
Hi all,
I'm a US PPL flying recreationally here in the UK while on assignement. After landing at Aberdeen the other day, I was told to vacate right and contact ground. The taxiway I turned onto has a hold line about 100 metres down after turing off...considerably futher away from the runway. I was chewed out by ATC because I didn't stop and contact ground after vacating even though I hadn't crossed the hold line!? Am I in the wrong or is the controller not practising proper procedure? I assumed, as in the US, you completely cross the hold line and then stop. This particular hold line as not painted in the right place in my opinion...it's too far off the runway and too near the parallel taxiway. I guess the contoller got nervous and was afraid I was going to get tangled up with a 737!
Thanks,
-Jason
I'm a US PPL flying recreationally here in the UK while on assignement. After landing at Aberdeen the other day, I was told to vacate right and contact ground. The taxiway I turned onto has a hold line about 100 metres down after turing off...considerably futher away from the runway. I was chewed out by ATC because I didn't stop and contact ground after vacating even though I hadn't crossed the hold line!? Am I in the wrong or is the controller not practising proper procedure? I assumed, as in the US, you completely cross the hold line and then stop. This particular hold line as not painted in the right place in my opinion...it's too far off the runway and too near the parallel taxiway. I guess the contoller got nervous and was afraid I was going to get tangled up with a 737!
Thanks,
-Jason
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I'm a UK PPL and was always taught that you had not vacated until you had crossed the hold line. Might be worth posting this on the ATC forum for a definitive answer, but I think you got a raw deal here.
High Flying Bird
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I was taught the same as Bluebeard, although I've heard aircraft following me in on final being given clearance to land when I've just left the runway. Mind you, it would be pretty silly to back up and block the path of a landing aeroplane! 
Join Date: Jun 2002
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I did my initial training at Luton, and the way my instructor taught me was to switch to ground and call without delay when the tower said, and not to cross any hold line without further clearance.
Guess I'm with ATC here.
Guess I'm with ATC here.
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macky42: See my reply on the ATC Issues forum. I think (but I am not an Aerodrome Controller) that in the situation you describe you might have a problem where you can't get in on Ground and you stop short of the line. You might be infringing the runway and cause a go-around or cancellation of take off clearance.
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Ok, but maybe it was the local practice. As I remember it (nearly 20 years ago now), if you went across the hold you would be getting in the way of any other taxiway traffic for sure, as the taxiways were one way at a time with only a couple of 'laybys' to let people through. I would certainly have been yelled at if I'd crossed the line in my PA28 and met a 737 coming the other way...
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My vote goes with the pilot. Until you cross the line you are still on the runway.
AerBabe: I landed once at Manchester (commercially) and the controller used "anticpated separation" when clearing a British Airways 737 for departure - assuming that by the time he had finished saying it, the Speedbird had read it back, opened the throttles and the aircraft had started to move at any speed, I would be clear.
All went well until my right brake seized on and the aircraft spun around again (ground loop style) back onto the runway.
Had I been on ground frequency by now, I would not have been able to stop the 737 - even worse if the pilot is inexperienced with a particular aerodrome, hasn't got the tower frequency memorised, and has tuned a single, old tumbler style King radio (no LED's with "flip flop" standby frequencies) to ground.
I will never tune to any other frequency until I've passed that line - it doesn't take much thinking to look up the taxiway before turning onto it - if there's something coming, I'll ask "Tower" - whilst also advising them that I'm, technically, still on the runway.
I do not know the wing span of the next aircraft to pass behind me - so I want to get off. As AOPA keeps trying to remind us here (USA) - the active runway at an airport is a very dangerous piece of real estate. Get off!!
AerBabe: I landed once at Manchester (commercially) and the controller used "anticpated separation" when clearing a British Airways 737 for departure - assuming that by the time he had finished saying it, the Speedbird had read it back, opened the throttles and the aircraft had started to move at any speed, I would be clear.
All went well until my right brake seized on and the aircraft spun around again (ground loop style) back onto the runway.
Had I been on ground frequency by now, I would not have been able to stop the 737 - even worse if the pilot is inexperienced with a particular aerodrome, hasn't got the tower frequency memorised, and has tuned a single, old tumbler style King radio (no LED's with "flip flop" standby frequencies) to ground.
I will never tune to any other frequency until I've passed that line - it doesn't take much thinking to look up the taxiway before turning onto it - if there's something coming, I'll ask "Tower" - whilst also advising them that I'm, technically, still on the runway.
I do not know the wing span of the next aircraft to pass behind me - so I want to get off. As AOPA keeps trying to remind us here (USA) - the active runway at an airport is a very dangerous piece of real estate. Get off!!
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not sure what went on there, but i tell pilots to"vacate left/right, then contact ground on blah"
i expect that the pilot will remain on twr until crossing hold point (where they are vacated and out of the cleared and graded area) before contacting ground
fair enough to stop immediately after that point till you get further instructions but first of all ensure that you are passed this point so the next a/c can land or take off. if you are the runway side of the hold then you are still deemed to be on the runway
prof
i expect that the pilot will remain on twr until crossing hold point (where they are vacated and out of the cleared and graded area) before contacting ground
fair enough to stop immediately after that point till you get further instructions but first of all ensure that you are passed this point so the next a/c can land or take off. if you are the runway side of the hold then you are still deemed to be on the runway
prof
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The priority is, surely, to vacate the runway to the extent that it is again usable? At any reasonable ATC unit air and ground controllers will work in harmony to the benefit of traffic. Eg the ground man will ensure that taxying aircraft will give way to an aircraft leaving a runway or, if it's not possible, the Air Controller will instruct the a/c to vacate and hold... or "follow xxx from the right", etc.. At many airfields the Air and Ground controllers are just one bloke and if he can't sort things out.........
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Is there some confusion here about holding position markings?
A standard HP line is four parallel lines, two solid and two broken. If you approach the HP from the 'solid' side you stop unless cleared otherwise, approch from the 'broken' side and you can (and normally should) cross it without slowing or stopping. If asked to report vacating a runway (in nice weather) you should make the call when the whole aircraft has crossed the first HP lines.
A standard HP line is four parallel lines, two solid and two broken. If you approach the HP from the 'solid' side you stop unless cleared otherwise, approch from the 'broken' side and you can (and normally should) cross it without slowing or stopping. If asked to report vacating a runway (in nice weather) you should make the call when the whole aircraft has crossed the first HP lines.
