Monday Pay Talks Deadline.......
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Area 52, you seem like a very clever chap. You're clearly wasted in NATS.
Forgetting about the 1.8% next December, only the 2.2 for this year is back-dated. So the only real change is an extra 2% in October.
Last week we were talking about strike action. Now, for 2% more, it's all sweetness and light again.
And no hated 2 year deal, either!
Well done, Prospect.
You showed them, didn't you!
Forgetting about the 1.8% next December, only the 2.2 for this year is back-dated. So the only real change is an extra 2% in October.
Last week we were talking about strike action. Now, for 2% more, it's all sweetness and light again.
And no hated 2 year deal, either!
Well done, Prospect.
You showed them, didn't you!
Last edited by Lieutenant Dan; 17th Jul 2002 at 22:26.
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The New Deal??
Just returned from another busy afternoon shift at a centre somewhere between swanwick and prestwick during which I received the details of the fantastic new pay deal......
Just flicking thru the mail shot from Prospect dated 11th July (original deadline day) where they had refused managements final offer of approx 8% over two years (good work fellas) as ' it was not sufficient recognition for pressures we are currently facing...'
There was also a hand written note from a union rep from monday evening apologising for the delay in a new offer but they were making significant progress on a new deal.
I find out today that this 'significant' progress is 1.8% 16 months away in return for which I will have to now give management an extra operational duty at their request once a year!!!! what a marvellous achievement by our negotiators plus the fact they have agreed for big brother to monitor how much work they have got out of you every day
Well at least i can sell my soul to the devil for £500 a day.....but can I?? am I being a little cynical in thinking that the only unit where this will be readily available is LACC and that management at every other unit will try there hardest to aviod overtime to protect budgets.
Sorry to rant but this is not just about a decent pay rise its also about recognition for the hard work we all do and the fact that its only going to get harder and more complex...
Come on everybody stick together, think of the bigger picture , vote this one down
Just flicking thru the mail shot from Prospect dated 11th July (original deadline day) where they had refused managements final offer of approx 8% over two years (good work fellas) as ' it was not sufficient recognition for pressures we are currently facing...'
There was also a hand written note from a union rep from monday evening apologising for the delay in a new offer but they were making significant progress on a new deal.
I find out today that this 'significant' progress is 1.8% 16 months away in return for which I will have to now give management an extra operational duty at their request once a year!!!! what a marvellous achievement by our negotiators plus the fact they have agreed for big brother to monitor how much work they have got out of you every day
Well at least i can sell my soul to the devil for £500 a day.....but can I?? am I being a little cynical in thinking that the only unit where this will be readily available is LACC and that management at every other unit will try there hardest to aviod overtime to protect budgets.
Sorry to rant but this is not just about a decent pay rise its also about recognition for the hard work we all do and the fact that its only going to get harder and more complex...
Come on everybody stick together, think of the bigger picture , vote this one down
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It all sounds quite attractive doesn't it. But should we be agreeing to overtime, albeit voluntary and worth £500 before tax. Why should we sell back days-in-lieu which are a right, not a perk. It's not our fault there's 2,500+ to cater for. Why accept a 2 year deal, some of which we don't get until the end of the 2nd year.
And what about the other non-pay related issues we wanted addressed, such as poor morale, lack of recognition etc. Or is the new GM going to wave a magic wand and sort that out too.
And what about the other non-pay related issues we wanted addressed, such as poor morale, lack of recognition etc. Or is the new GM going to wave a magic wand and sort that out too.
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Sadly, we've been screwed again.
Congrats to management who do their job very well. Well, they
got what THEY wanted didn't they? Credit where it's due.
But nothing's ever going to change. For once it looked like we were gonna use the power we have, but we wimped out.
And to all our NATS colleagues who have such a dislike of us arrogant, over-paid, under-worked, aggressive, abusive controllers - thanks for your support!
Don't be surprised if I let that door swing shut in your face next time.
Congrats to management who do their job very well. Well, they
got what THEY wanted didn't they? Credit where it's due.
But nothing's ever going to change. For once it looked like we were gonna use the power we have, but we wimped out.
And to all our NATS colleagues who have such a dislike of us arrogant, over-paid, under-worked, aggressive, abusive controllers - thanks for your support!
Don't be surprised if I let that door swing shut in your face next time.
Last edited by Lieutenant Dan; 17th Jul 2002 at 23:34.
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I don't work at a centre where TOIL, and AL will be bought back as a matter of course, so I would like to pass this warning onto all the airport units: BEFORE any ballot takes place, have a meeting with management and make sure they agree on the local conditions for buying back your time-off. BEFORE you vote yes to this deal, make sure you really know exactly what you are getting, and the implications of OPM on night shifts!! YES, at the end of 2 years your BASIC salary will have risen by 10%, but at what cost?
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Lieutenant Dan.. wise up. Most ATSAs know & appreciate how hard your job is, after all we work alongside you. You do an amazing job, day in, day out. I'm happy for you to earn as much as you possibly can, more than you do now, I just don't see why you should get a bigger PERCENTAGE rise than me, 10% of your salary is more than 10% of mine, fair enough, but why 10% for you and 6% for ATSAs?
Don't play the "nobody supports us, nobody loves us, boo hoo" card either, the ATCO sectional claim is all about valuing ATCOs more than other staff, thats hardly going to endear you to many people is it? Its not as though you'd support PCS to get the same percentage rise as you either? Thought not.
And if you think your offer is crap, its still more than the rest of NATS has been offered, or had you noticed? (or cared?)
I'll watch out for that swing door, cheers
Don't play the "nobody supports us, nobody loves us, boo hoo" card either, the ATCO sectional claim is all about valuing ATCOs more than other staff, thats hardly going to endear you to many people is it? Its not as though you'd support PCS to get the same percentage rise as you either? Thought not.
And if you think your offer is crap, its still more than the rest of NATS has been offered, or had you noticed? (or cared?)
I'll watch out for that swing door, cheers
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Lieutenant!
Peace my friend, peace. It is okay to feel how you feel but sounding off at others won't help, you or anybody else. You might need to have a look at what is really important in life. Seems to me that money is coming ahead of people?
Point 4
Peace my friend, peace. It is okay to feel how you feel but sounding off at others won't help, you or anybody else. You might need to have a look at what is really important in life. Seems to me that money is coming ahead of people?
Point 4
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LD:
Thats not a very friendly attitude from you. I'm someone you, whether you believe it/like it or not you couldn't do your job without. You need the support, help and love of me and my kind, and putting stupid childish comments like that on here isn't going to help. 90% of non-ATCOs in the company know the job you do and how hard it is. But the same 90% of non-ATCOs get very upset when all you do is whinge and whine about how the rest of the company doesn't know about your plight and doesn't care. Maybe they don't care cos of the attitude you have towards them? This pay deal, on the face of it seems pretty crap to me. But then its not my opinion that counts now. What really bugs little old me and an awful lot of the other enginners I've talked over the past few days is our union. Now fair enough you lot voted no and the rest of us voted yes, but isn't this union supposed to be fighting for all of us? What the hell am I paying my subs for? I'm not paying my subs so you chaps and chapesses can get a pay rise and I don't. Again, yes I know about the voting thing. So a question on how this now works. An e-mail came around yesterday saying along the lines that this new pay bung as well as the old offer will be put back to the vote. I got the impression that everyone in no-Prospect would be re-balloted on the original pay deal, and the ATCOs on the bung. Is this true? If this is true, what happens if the rest of us vote no to the original deal? Does that mean you lot then get naff all until we're then sorted out for our sectional claim? I'm asking cos I don't know, so please enlighten me.
Thats not a very friendly attitude from you. I'm someone you, whether you believe it/like it or not you couldn't do your job without. You need the support, help and love of me and my kind, and putting stupid childish comments like that on here isn't going to help. 90% of non-ATCOs in the company know the job you do and how hard it is. But the same 90% of non-ATCOs get very upset when all you do is whinge and whine about how the rest of the company doesn't know about your plight and doesn't care. Maybe they don't care cos of the attitude you have towards them? This pay deal, on the face of it seems pretty crap to me. But then its not my opinion that counts now. What really bugs little old me and an awful lot of the other enginners I've talked over the past few days is our union. Now fair enough you lot voted no and the rest of us voted yes, but isn't this union supposed to be fighting for all of us? What the hell am I paying my subs for? I'm not paying my subs so you chaps and chapesses can get a pay rise and I don't. Again, yes I know about the voting thing. So a question on how this now works. An e-mail came around yesterday saying along the lines that this new pay bung as well as the old offer will be put back to the vote. I got the impression that everyone in no-Prospect would be re-balloted on the original pay deal, and the ATCOs on the bung. Is this true? If this is true, what happens if the rest of us vote no to the original deal? Does that mean you lot then get naff all until we're then sorted out for our sectional claim? I'm asking cos I don't know, so please enlighten me.
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Gosh our management are sharper than I thought!
This deal is brilliant , well done Mark , Kenny etc.
But what the heck do our Union Guys think they're doing.
This deal is brilliant , well done Mark , Kenny etc.
But what the heck do our Union Guys think they're doing.
Last edited by nippa; 18th Jul 2002 at 08:28.
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XERXIUS
I trust you will be looking forward to the day when individual units negotiate their own pay. Then you can settle for the type of deal that is being offered and let people in the south, where the cost of living and levels of traffic are much higher, try and get something a little better for themselves. Then you will be happy and so will I.
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I was under the impression that our unit for one had given Prospect a clear mandate to fight any talk of overtime, be it voluntary or enforced.
I don't want to start a fight between units, but this offer seems unequivocally geared towards appeasing the troops at LACC.
Chaps, we are fighting for a better basic wage FOR ALL.
I value my free time. I am permanently too knackered and mentally exhausted at the moment to even contemplate volunteering for overtime.
Call me a cynic, but having seen various other management regimes at large, something which is introduced voluntarily often becomes compulsory; productivity through stealth. NO, I don't want it.
We're creating a very stiff rod for our own back when in one breath we might be voting to accept the idea of overtime whilst in the other bleating to the Daily Mirror and Chirp that we are overpressed, overworked, and insufficiently rested.
Put your future before next month's pay slip.
I'll also bet the equivalent money NATS has saved on my pension contributions that hell will freeze over before management at MACC find the resources to buy back TOIL.
Stop looking at the figures in the form they are being banded around. Look VERY hard at the strings which management have cleverly attached to their oh so generous offer.
ATCOs have criticised our worthy ATSA colleagues on here for not supporting our stand and have cast doubts on their commitment to 'the team.' I hope that when you consider the offer, irrespective of your unit, you consider the fact that your colleagues at smaller, less influencial units might be thinking they are getting royally shafted by this appalling 'deal'.
Keep the big picture, vote NO to this shabby offer.
160
I don't want to start a fight between units, but this offer seems unequivocally geared towards appeasing the troops at LACC.
Chaps, we are fighting for a better basic wage FOR ALL.
I value my free time. I am permanently too knackered and mentally exhausted at the moment to even contemplate volunteering for overtime.
Call me a cynic, but having seen various other management regimes at large, something which is introduced voluntarily often becomes compulsory; productivity through stealth. NO, I don't want it.
We're creating a very stiff rod for our own back when in one breath we might be voting to accept the idea of overtime whilst in the other bleating to the Daily Mirror and Chirp that we are overpressed, overworked, and insufficiently rested.
Put your future before next month's pay slip.
I'll also bet the equivalent money NATS has saved on my pension contributions that hell will freeze over before management at MACC find the resources to buy back TOIL.
Stop looking at the figures in the form they are being banded around. Look VERY hard at the strings which management have cleverly attached to their oh so generous offer.
ATCOs have criticised our worthy ATSA colleagues on here for not supporting our stand and have cast doubts on their commitment to 'the team.' I hope that when you consider the offer, irrespective of your unit, you consider the fact that your colleagues at smaller, less influencial units might be thinking they are getting royally shafted by this appalling 'deal'.
Keep the big picture, vote NO to this shabby offer.
160
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I hope that some of the Union Negotiators read this!
In case they don't I will be voicing my concerns to my local Union rep asap.
1) I don't want 10% over 2 years. I want less - yes less.
All I would like is 4% backedated to January 2002 and for one year only.
No strings, clauses, subclauses, bonus schemes, performance related. Just 4% for one year starting at the beginning of the pay year!
2) It would also be appreciated if our (the one we pay for and fund) union would investigate the state of our pension scheme on our behalf asap. With the stock markets worldwide nosediving, surely the calculations used to give our employer a pensions holiday is now questionable. Could our union please address this, and if need be, get NATS to start up their contributions again.
We should really be mobilising against this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for the pay ballot. Remember the Cast of Grange Hills famous drug song
Just say no!
In case they don't I will be voicing my concerns to my local Union rep asap.
1) I don't want 10% over 2 years. I want less - yes less.
All I would like is 4% backedated to January 2002 and for one year only.
No strings, clauses, subclauses, bonus schemes, performance related. Just 4% for one year starting at the beginning of the pay year!
2) It would also be appreciated if our (the one we pay for and fund) union would investigate the state of our pension scheme on our behalf asap. With the stock markets worldwide nosediving, surely the calculations used to give our employer a pensions holiday is now questionable. Could our union please address this, and if need be, get NATS to start up their contributions again.
We should really be mobilising against this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for the pay ballot. Remember the Cast of Grange Hills famous drug song
Just say no!
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Gotta agree with everyone else here.........
This offer falls shabolically below what I was hoping for, so you can all count on another X in the no box.
This time I really had hopes.........silly me
This offer falls shabolically below what I was hoping for, so you can all count on another X in the no box.
This time I really had hopes.........silly me
Like those who have commented above, I am extremely disappointed by the eventual offer - the leaks had given the impression that something more appetising would appear. I am also saddened that, on this forum at least, we appear to have a north-south divide on its acceptability. As others have pointed out, whatever the current situation elsewhere, those of us at NERC and West Drayton are not in a unique position - we are just a few years ahead of what will become the norm. There will be no cosy postings in NATS before very long!
To address a few points not yet mentioned -
What is intended by the agreement to reduce the minimum shift length for part-time staff? Is this just an enabling-agreement for a few individuals with child-care or similar problems? Or is it the start of a stealthy move towards individual rostering by picking on a minority group to start with?
As the greatest pressure on management in their quest for service delivery improvements will come between now and the end of September, why does the start date of the "inducement" not coincide with the probable introduction of the revised rostering?
As regards the one-off buy-back of TOIL and annual leave - I do hope our negotiators were not influenced by the potential for personal pecunary advantage, to the detriment of their colleagues. There are rumours that some of the team have around 80/100 days-in-lieu owing - do the maths.
Overall, despite some canny negotiation by the management side, I cannot see this as the key to a much-improved service delivery. A few people MAY opt for overtime payments, but their opportunites and hence their impact, will be extremely limited, and the additional one operational duty per year will have even less effect! It seems that the net result is a no-score draw - both sides as aggrieved as before, and both looking forward to the replay in January 2004 with increased expectation.
To address a few points not yet mentioned -
What is intended by the agreement to reduce the minimum shift length for part-time staff? Is this just an enabling-agreement for a few individuals with child-care or similar problems? Or is it the start of a stealthy move towards individual rostering by picking on a minority group to start with?
As the greatest pressure on management in their quest for service delivery improvements will come between now and the end of September, why does the start date of the "inducement" not coincide with the probable introduction of the revised rostering?
As regards the one-off buy-back of TOIL and annual leave - I do hope our negotiators were not influenced by the potential for personal pecunary advantage, to the detriment of their colleagues. There are rumours that some of the team have around 80/100 days-in-lieu owing - do the maths.
Overall, despite some canny negotiation by the management side, I cannot see this as the key to a much-improved service delivery. A few people MAY opt for overtime payments, but their opportunites and hence their impact, will be extremely limited, and the additional one operational duty per year will have even less effect! It seems that the net result is a no-score draw - both sides as aggrieved as before, and both looking forward to the replay in January 2004 with increased expectation.
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Numpo-Nigit
The result was an own goal by both sides.
The management have succeeded in annoying the ATSAs and engineers who are now going to reject the re-balloted pay deal unless they get parity with ATCOs.
Prospect engineering branch seems about to collapse in on itsself after the same union gave two different recommendations to the same pay offer. Most people I know are on the verge of quitting.
The result was an own goal by both sides.
The management have succeeded in annoying the ATSAs and engineers who are now going to reject the re-balloted pay deal unless they get parity with ATCOs.
Prospect engineering branch seems about to collapse in on itsself after the same union gave two different recommendations to the same pay offer. Most people I know are on the verge of quitting.