Light Aircraft IFR through the London TMA
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Light Aircraft IFR through the London TMA
Hi All,
I'm looking for some advice on routing a light aircraft IFR through the London TMA. OK. I know the first answer......Please don't! But in the event that there is a sympathetic ear to my cause I will explain my query.
I am looking to fly a Piper Archer at 110kts from Chester (EGNR) to Calais operating at up to FL100. I would like follow the published route to KONAN from the latest SDR which is
DCT REXAM DCT NANTI L8 HON L10 BPK N601 DET L6 DVR L9
However at DVR I would be looking to route to RINTI instead of KONAN.
Filing a plan and running a test on it produces no rejection but as a retired airline pilot I can appreciate that having a slow moving P28A around NE London is your idea of a bad hair day.
Speaking to a CAA/NATS rep at a show last year the comment was 'Yes. You are perfectly entitled to be there. But PLEASE don't do it as it will cause chaos'.
Obviously the main alternative is to scud run around the zones and bounce around in the turbulence but it would be nice to utilize my Instrument Rating and on board kit to seek a more comfortable (and frankly easier) trip.
Printable answers only on a postcard below please......
Regards. BB
I'm looking for some advice on routing a light aircraft IFR through the London TMA. OK. I know the first answer......Please don't! But in the event that there is a sympathetic ear to my cause I will explain my query.
I am looking to fly a Piper Archer at 110kts from Chester (EGNR) to Calais operating at up to FL100. I would like follow the published route to KONAN from the latest SDR which is
DCT REXAM DCT NANTI L8 HON L10 BPK N601 DET L6 DVR L9
However at DVR I would be looking to route to RINTI instead of KONAN.
Filing a plan and running a test on it produces no rejection but as a retired airline pilot I can appreciate that having a slow moving P28A around NE London is your idea of a bad hair day.
Speaking to a CAA/NATS rep at a show last year the comment was 'Yes. You are perfectly entitled to be there. But PLEASE don't do it as it will cause chaos'.
Obviously the main alternative is to scud run around the zones and bounce around in the turbulence but it would be nice to utilize my Instrument Rating and on board kit to seek a more comfortable (and frankly easier) trip.
Printable answers only on a postcard below please......
Regards. BB
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It's perfectly possible, we often have little things bumbling around at 90 or 100 doing no knots, especially down towards RINTI and onwards to Lille for LFAT and beyond. Please understand though that the route may be a little dog-legged to avoid the worst points (BPK, LAM etc.)
If possible maybe try to avoid going through the TMA at tea time just to alleviate the worst of the swearing...
If possible maybe try to avoid going through the TMA at tea time just to alleviate the worst of the swearing...
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It's easy. Do it. Don't worry about being a 'low and slow' in ATC (Unless your name is Merrick Powell, the man who said in 1970 there will be no more lows and slows in the LTMA w.e.f. 'Mediator'...), it's dead easy for a TMA ATCO to miss a stationary target...
Yes, NLN is right, maybe best to avoid Friday tea-time...in your own interests...
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There's nothing wrong with filing that flight plan - go ahead and do it. Make sure you carry enough fuel for being vectored around the LTMA though. The distance you actually fly will almost certainly be longer than the flight planned route as you'll be vectored around holds etc. After DVR you should be able to file L10 RINTI.
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Thanks for the replies. Your encouragement is gratefully received.
I would most likely be passing through on a weekday between 12:00 and 14:00 local and probably not on a Friday anyway so hopefully won't be too much of a nuisance.
___________
Second question if I may....
On reviewing the SDR route between EGNR and EGKB (Biggin) I see that the arrival is via JACKO. Since this is offshore and involves a large descending arc over water what's your preferred solution for single engine aircraft to fly?
I would most likely be passing through on a weekday between 12:00 and 14:00 local and probably not on a Friday anyway so hopefully won't be too much of a nuisance.
___________
Second question if I may....
On reviewing the SDR route between EGNR and EGKB (Biggin) I see that the arrival is via JACKO. Since this is offshore and involves a large descending arc over water what's your preferred solution for single engine aircraft to fly?
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BB
Just do it. To fly the route that you require and have the qualifications to undertake is the sort of service that you as the customer should expect from ' the company'.
It also may enable the TMA and Approach Radar controllers to revisit the delights of a Radar Release the finer points of which was an ambition of Examiners to be able to extract from validation candidates.
Just do it. To fly the route that you require and have the qualifications to undertake is the sort of service that you as the customer should expect from ' the company'.
It also may enable the TMA and Approach Radar controllers to revisit the delights of a Radar Release the finer points of which was an ambition of Examiners to be able to extract from validation candidates.
'Operating at up to FL100'
You might get through at a min level of FL80 but certainly no lower, in fact higher might be preferable.
I've know TC descend traffic (very rarely) and ask Farnborough to work it west of Heathrow in order to avoid congestion, in fact the original plan when they extended the LTMA westwards back in the early '80s was for Farnborough to work these 'low and slows' but my boss at the time, non operational at Farnborough and ex Heathrow, said we hadn't got the staff.
Of course we had, but he didn't bother to ask us operational types if it was feasible.
You might get through at a min level of FL80 but certainly no lower, in fact higher might be preferable.
I've know TC descend traffic (very rarely) and ask Farnborough to work it west of Heathrow in order to avoid congestion, in fact the original plan when they extended the LTMA westwards back in the early '80s was for Farnborough to work these 'low and slows' but my boss at the time, non operational at Farnborough and ex Heathrow, said we hadn't got the staff.
Of course we had, but he didn't bother to ask us operational types if it was feasible.
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Hi there!
Regarding the KB arrival...as you mention routing the arcs I am assuming you will be following the RNAV1 transition?
In that case, and considering your lunchtime/ weekday plan, you should find there won't much use of the arcs at that time of day. We use them primarily during spikes of EGLC traffic, for accurate intermediate approach spacing. No guarantee, but you should route JACKO-BABKU-RAVSA at that time of day at the very most, subject to activity at Shoeburyness (EGD136-138).
I am still a TC trainee, and I do not have much experience with how routing a flight like yours would work. You may be able to request ad hoc routing via SND, staying west of the danger areas if active, and remaining on shore.
Regarding the KB arrival...as you mention routing the arcs I am assuming you will be following the RNAV1 transition?
In that case, and considering your lunchtime/ weekday plan, you should find there won't much use of the arcs at that time of day. We use them primarily during spikes of EGLC traffic, for accurate intermediate approach spacing. No guarantee, but you should route JACKO-BABKU-RAVSA at that time of day at the very most, subject to activity at Shoeburyness (EGD136-138).
I am still a TC trainee, and I do not have much experience with how routing a flight like yours would work. You may be able to request ad hoc routing via SND, staying west of the danger areas if active, and remaining on shore.
Way back in 1969 when I was a very junior assistant at West drayton, I was on 'D' watch which had a particular controller (procedural not radar) who I was warned 'if you ever make a mistake, he won't say anything to you but he'll report you to the supervisor'.
He was not liked by the other controllers who rostered him for night duties on a position called 'DO' whereby all he did was issue departure clearances to the six major airfields in the LTMA. He didn't 'need' to talk to any of the other controllers.
Anyway about 2am one night duty, a flight plan was requested from (I think) Luton for a Cessna 150 for an IFR flight to Brussels at FL90.
He issued it with a standard clearance, but added the restriction 'to maintain not less than 150 knots'
Now even I know that a '150 will only do that sort of speed at full throttle in a dive with the engine overspeeding.
The pilot I think, chose that time for his flight as he knew there wouldn't be a lot of other traffic around, but that didn't matter to 'DO', he just didn't want it clogging up the airspace.
No prizes for guessing who 'DO' was.
He was not liked by the other controllers who rostered him for night duties on a position called 'DO' whereby all he did was issue departure clearances to the six major airfields in the LTMA. He didn't 'need' to talk to any of the other controllers.
Anyway about 2am one night duty, a flight plan was requested from (I think) Luton for a Cessna 150 for an IFR flight to Brussels at FL90.
He issued it with a standard clearance, but added the restriction 'to maintain not less than 150 knots'
Now even I know that a '150 will only do that sort of speed at full throttle in a dive with the engine overspeeding.
The pilot I think, chose that time for his flight as he knew there wouldn't be a lot of other traffic around, but that didn't matter to 'DO', he just didn't want it clogging up the airspace.
No prizes for guessing who 'DO' was.
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You wont have any problem with that. I have flown similar twice recently in an Arrow. I cant speak for what happens north of bpk because I join there but after it is pretty much as filed. What you should know is that coming back seems to get an early descent and handed out of the airways to thames or southend radar to traverse the detling lambourne part. So that is the part to research how you get handed onward.Last trip I had to descend 4000ft det to lam and thence 2400 to denham so below tma. And yes, dvr rinti is no problem. Hope that helps
