airspace use
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airspace use
there is a reason for airways/ air-routes. Why not stick to them? If I'm controlling a difficult sortie, the last thing I need is some civvy traffic, storming through my merge-point. Use common sence. If you see a 24xx, 15xx or 13xx squawk, stay away. SIMPLE! You stick to your airspace, and I'll stay in mine. 
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airspace use
it may not be ours, but if civvys want to use the same airspace as us, they should realise, or at least appreciiate the type of work we will be caryying out, and just to stick to the airspace that is designated for their use only
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as previously stated it's everyones airspace!!
'sides on the occasions that i have tried to speak to one of you guys about, i might add, one of your own, after being transferred from pillar to post and back again just to speak to the controller was just silly!!
perhaps a bit of appreciation is needed on BOTH sides
prof
'sides on the occasions that i have tried to speak to one of you guys about, i might add, one of your own, after being transferred from pillar to post and back again just to speak to the controller was just silly!!
perhaps a bit of appreciation is needed on BOTH sides
prof
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comms
prof,
You are the lucky one, you just have to deal with our outdated comms system, we have to control on an outdated system. If you saw what we control on, you would be scared
You are the lucky one, you just have to deal with our outdated comms system, we have to control on an outdated system. If you saw what we control on, you would be scared
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alpha
Maybe we should proportianalise airspace based on numbers of aircraft - that would free up lots more for the civil world and you'd be shoehorned into a corner of the North Sea.
Quit while you're ahead
CM
Maybe we should proportianalise airspace based on numbers of aircraft - that would free up lots more for the civil world and you'd be shoehorned into a corner of the North Sea.
Quit while you're ahead
CM
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Alpha
I've lost count of the number of times one of your Tornadoes has come charging at one of my aircraft, and I've rung you (or your sort) to 'co-ordinate', to be told, and I quote:-
"Class G pal, see and avoid"
If you were singing from the same hymnsheet things might be easier, but if you give it, you've got to learn to take it as well.
F3 at 450 KTS, Helicopter at 145 KTS, avoiding action to the heli means that you've essentially got the heli in the same place, just looking in a different direction when the airprox happens. Precisely what you need when you're obliged to give a RAS.
There's no point getting out the good pen and the paperwork, because nothing will ever change.
I've lost count of the number of times one of your Tornadoes has come charging at one of my aircraft, and I've rung you (or your sort) to 'co-ordinate', to be told, and I quote:-
"Class G pal, see and avoid"
If you were singing from the same hymnsheet things might be easier, but if you give it, you've got to learn to take it as well.
F3 at 450 KTS, Helicopter at 145 KTS, avoiding action to the heli means that you've essentially got the heli in the same place, just looking in a different direction when the airprox happens. Precisely what you need when you're obliged to give a RAS.
There's no point getting out the good pen and the paperwork, because nothing will ever change.
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He's having a laugh, ain't he?!!
I've lost count of the number of times I have had to call traffic (or worse) to civil airliners on an Upper Air Route in the NSEA because some trainee fighter ace under the 'control' (loose term) of one of the FC units has bust his coordination and looked like coming uncomfortably close to one of the 40+ aircraft AN HOUR (not a day) which transit the sector.
In demonstration of a lack of understanding, how many other people here have been rung by a FC with coordination which includes the phrase: 'My traffic not above 24000ft on the Yarmouth QNH'? What use is THAT to an airliner cruising at or descending to FL250?
I've lost count of the number of times I have had to call traffic (or worse) to civil airliners on an Upper Air Route in the NSEA because some trainee fighter ace under the 'control' (loose term) of one of the FC units has bust his coordination and looked like coming uncomfortably close to one of the 40+ aircraft AN HOUR (not a day) which transit the sector.
In demonstration of a lack of understanding, how many other people here have been rung by a FC with coordination which includes the phrase: 'My traffic not above 24000ft on the Yarmouth QNH'? What use is THAT to an airliner cruising at or descending to FL250?
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Why on earth aren't the MIL controllers and Civil controllers operating out of the same rule book? There is only one airspace, it's all air, and using two (or are there more? a dark blue one, a light blue one, and maybe a green one for AAC) rule books is a prescription for disaster.
Can you spell "L I A B I L I T Y" ?
edited for seplling
Can you spell "L I A B I L I T Y" ?
edited for seplling
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Jesus Alpha, we all know what a bunch of ***** you scopies are, there's no need to go around broadcasting it to the rest of the world! It's not your airspace, so go and take your poxy non-rule-of-the-air-conforming fighters somewhere where they're not likely to beat-up honest air traffic trying to earn a crust. And while we're at it, why can't you take them in and out of Coningsby yourselfs as well, instead of p***ing of to the tea-bar for an extra 10 mins.
I would like to publicly distance the coments of this fighter controller from us Mil proper air traffic controllers.
Hippy
I would like to publicly distance the coments of this fighter controller from us Mil proper air traffic controllers.
Hippy
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Oh, God, what's he said now...
And I'd like to distance the rest of the FIghter Control world from alpha. We all get frustrated at times but this is not the place to say it in the manner you did. In 4 posts on one night you have completely f***ed up about 12 months of hard graft put in by myself, ADIS and smorg to bring a little understanding between FCs, military controllers and civilian controllers. Thanks a bunch If you use what intelligence you have and read the preceding posts, you will see that many military and civil controllers don't understand what we do. It is patent from your attitude that you don't care, let alone know, what they're trying to do. Manning levels and budgets mean that visits to each others' place of work are becoming a thing of the past. The only place we can get to know each others jobs better is on places like this and you have managed to put peoples' backs up so much that they're unlikely to listen to you impartially when you do have a genuine complaint. Do us all a favour and don't post again.
Next time you have a hard day at the office, go to the bar and get s**tfaced - I just pray I never have to control in the same ops room as you.
If you use what intelligence you have and read the preceding posts, you will see that many military and civil controllers don't understand what we do. It is patent from your attitude that you don't care, let alone know, what they're trying to do. Manning levels and budgets mean that visits to each others' place of work are becoming a thing of the past. The only place we can get to know each others jobs better is on places like this and you have managed to put peoples' backs up so much that they're unlikely to listen to you impartially when you do have a genuine complaint. Do us all a favour and don't post again.Next time you have a hard day at the office, go to the bar and get s**tfaced - I just pray I never have to control in the same ops room as you.
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Hippy, I to am one of the **** scopies, but please please please do not think that we all have the same view as Alpha. For those with a rational mind the answer is simple. It is nobodies’ airspace and if we all stick to the same rules, we should all have easier lives.
As for the comments about being told it's class G airspace and we will not co-ordinate, this does happen but as rarely as possible and is normally because our beloved pilots tell us that they will not co-ordinate. But surely if both controllers talk and call at a sensible time a turn of 20 degrees is all that is required to make things usually safe.
Prof, As for being pushed from pillar to post just to speak to a controller, you should only have to talk to 2 other people first, the Fighter Marshaller ( that's where all the incoming calls route to) and the assistant (we cannot make 3 way calls so the assistant or controller can pick up the phone).
As for the comments about being told it's class G airspace and we will not co-ordinate, this does happen but as rarely as possible and is normally because our beloved pilots tell us that they will not co-ordinate. But surely if both controllers talk and call at a sensible time a turn of 20 degrees is all that is required to make things usually safe.
Prof, As for being pushed from pillar to post just to speak to a controller, you should only have to talk to 2 other people first, the Fighter Marshaller ( that's where all the incoming calls route to) and the assistant (we cannot make 3 way calls so the assistant or controller can pick up the phone).
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I heard not very long ago that since the Gulf War (well done boys) the front line fighting strength of the RAF has been cut by 50%. It seems to me that important though you are, the RAF doesn't need to be getting shirty with the civilians because in the grand scheme of things you are becoming less significant as time goes by.
To put things in perspective: The traffic forcasts suggest that the controlled airspace boundaries will expand significantly over the next decade. If the government decide to put TWO more runways at Stansted a VERY significant part of East Anglia's airspace will have to change class. Defence of our economy is pretty important too.
Point 4
To put things in perspective: The traffic forcasts suggest that the controlled airspace boundaries will expand significantly over the next decade. If the government decide to put TWO more runways at Stansted a VERY significant part of East Anglia's airspace will have to change class. Defence of our economy is pretty important too.
Point 4
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Appreciate some of you FCs are doing your best with valve sets, DF and drums. So, how do I get a visit round HMP Peterhead ?
BTW Alpha, go and read your book about Class F airspace - I'm getting pretty pissed off wheeling ATPs and SAABs with wimmin and children on board around the sky just to avoid your 2 on 2s across W6D and W3D. Do you know where/what they are ?
If you have a neck, I suggest you wind it in, or reposition it in your 6 o'clock
BTW Alpha, go and read your book about Class F airspace - I'm getting pretty pissed off wheeling ATPs and SAABs with wimmin and children on board around the sky just to avoid your 2 on 2s across W6D and W3D. Do you know where/what they are ?
If you have a neck, I suggest you wind it in, or reposition it in your 6 o'clock
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Airspace
Alpha- some civilian ATCOs have no choice but to work large numbers of commercial, passenger-carrying traffic in Class G airspace. There are numerous airports in the UK which have no controlled airspace connection whatsoever to the airways structure (Bristol, Newcastle, Exeter etc) and they all take the sort of aeroplanes that you happily use when you and many, many others go on your holiday or want a weekend p**s up in Prague/Dublin etc- B757, Airbus and such like.
Along with many very professional colleagues (several of them ex-military ATCOs), I've been working all of our inbounds/outbounds in the open FIR for the last 17 years under such circumstances and it's hard work at times, providing a proper RAS whilst trying to avoid all the other "unknown"/unco-ordinated stuff you see, including military fast jets, which you are less-than-helpfully told are under a RIS/FIS only. And I do concur with some of the comments on this forum about the difficulty of co-ordinating with some (not all, by any means- EGDL are great) military units, for sure. And don't tell me that all I need to do to discharge my responsibility is to limit/downgrade the service: Fat consolation that is to a B757 driver with 234 folk down the back.
"Get more controlled airspace, then?", you say. Tried it lately? And who is likely to be one of the biggest objectors to any proposal that way? Anyone else want to chip in on this debate?
Along with many very professional colleagues (several of them ex-military ATCOs), I've been working all of our inbounds/outbounds in the open FIR for the last 17 years under such circumstances and it's hard work at times, providing a proper RAS whilst trying to avoid all the other "unknown"/unco-ordinated stuff you see, including military fast jets, which you are less-than-helpfully told are under a RIS/FIS only. And I do concur with some of the comments on this forum about the difficulty of co-ordinating with some (not all, by any means- EGDL are great) military units, for sure. And don't tell me that all I need to do to discharge my responsibility is to limit/downgrade the service: Fat consolation that is to a B757 driver with 234 folk down the back.
"Get more controlled airspace, then?", you say. Tried it lately? And who is likely to be one of the biggest objectors to any proposal that way? Anyone else want to chip in on this debate?
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JA
you have a good point there newcastle is a paticular example of this it is becoming increasingly more difficult for us to achieve a satisfactory outcome when more and more of the newcastle aberdeen traffic is all RAS, and we are operating overland up to 24k RIS. We do try to stay clear but at the end of the day we are not flying the aircraft, but we do go to great lengths with our aircrew to try and achieve seperation that will make your life a little easier.
you have a good point there newcastle is a paticular example of this it is becoming increasingly more difficult for us to achieve a satisfactory outcome when more and more of the newcastle aberdeen traffic is all RAS, and we are operating overland up to 24k RIS. We do try to stay clear but at the end of the day we are not flying the aircraft, but we do go to great lengths with our aircrew to try and achieve seperation that will make your life a little easier.
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Re: airspace use
alpha,
In the US, we vector around active miltary resticted areas and military operations areas, etc. Most RNAV or GPS aircraft always request direct to their destinations so unless there is a reason not to we will give direct. Airway and Jetway routing is slowly falling by the wayside as more aircraft install RNAV or GPS.
Mike
In the US, we vector around active miltary resticted areas and military operations areas, etc. Most RNAV or GPS aircraft always request direct to their destinations so unless there is a reason not to we will give direct. Airway and Jetway routing is slowly falling by the wayside as more aircraft install RNAV or GPS.
Mike
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Aunt Rimmer,
If you'd like a visit to HMP Peterhead then e-mail me.(Seriously!)
We can go and look for Alpha Control and kick the s**t out of him!!
Luv,
ADIS
If you'd like a visit to HMP Peterhead then e-mail me.(Seriously!)
We can go and look for Alpha Control and kick the s**t out of him!!
Luv,
ADIS
Last edited by ADIS5000; 8th Jul 2002 at 21:10.