Heathrow extra runway
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
4 Greens,
The thing is, until the government make a decision, and the public consultations start, I doubt those working on it will be talking about it. There is already a lot of misunderstanding out there about ATC around London, any 'information' put out now would be based on many, many assumptions and very heavily burdened by caveats, which tend to get ignored/forgotten by those with agendas.
The thing is, until the government make a decision, and the public consultations start, I doubt those working on it will be talking about it. There is already a lot of misunderstanding out there about ATC around London, any 'information' put out now would be based on many, many assumptions and very heavily burdened by caveats, which tend to get ignored/forgotten by those with agendas.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,245
Likes: 1
From: London
For some time now the ATC in South East England has been overloaded. It is rare that there is no holding on arrivals. An extra runway will exacerbate this. If one were a cynic one would think that NATS dont say anything because more aircraft means more income.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
Maybe, maybe not.
The fact is that there are so many other variables involved, nobody can say for sure what the impact of a third runway would be on airborne holding, either in the short- or long-term.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,446
Likes: 367
From: Wildest Surrey
If the government allowed H24 operations like they used to before about 1971 and like they still do in most other civilised countries, there would be no need for an extra runway.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: T.C.
Chevron 24 hour operations would help, however airlines don't want to fly when there is no demand. So if passengers don't won't to fly at 0300 then the airlines won't use the runway slot.
3rd runway, ATC will play catch up on the procedures and controller training when and if a decision is ever made!!when I say catch up I mean panic!!
3rd runway, ATC will play catch up on the procedures and controller training when and if a decision is ever made!!when I say catch up I mean panic!!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
Clearly the government has decided that removing the night quota restrictions would not be politically acceptable. The argument that H24 operation would provide as much additional capacity as a 3rd runway only holds water if you assume there is demand throughout the night for around 80 movements per hour, for which I've not seen any evidence.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: T.C.
During the summer Gatwick is busy up until 0230, but then it's dead until 0600.
Winter it's very quiet.
Places like Dubai are busy during the night because people want to be at their destination or leave during the day.
HD, there would not be the demand for flights during the night.
Winter it's very quiet.
Places like Dubai are busy during the night because people want to be at their destination or leave during the day.
HD, there would not be the demand for flights during the night.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 794
Likes: 21
From: England
If 3rd runway was built then I think capacity for the three runways combined would be capped so as to provide more resilience than the present declared capacity for the two runway operation which have very little resilience should an unplanned runway closure occur or low visibility procedures are put in place.
I read somewhere recently that Heathrow Airport have indicated that it would not permit scheduled movements to land before 0530hrs local should a 3rd runway be approved. I understand that presently it is not before 0430hrs. Whilst this may give noise relief for an extra hour to those under the arrival flight path it's unlikely to affect the number of arrivals before the 0600hrs end of curfew. Heathrow's present night movement quota limits movements between 2330-0600hrs to an average of 15 to 16 per night. Virtually all are arrivals and which can be achieved for the 30min period between 0530 and 0600hrs, so this noise relief offering is likely to have little or no effect on Heathrow's business.
I read somewhere recently that Heathrow Airport have indicated that it would not permit scheduled movements to land before 0530hrs local should a 3rd runway be approved. I understand that presently it is not before 0430hrs. Whilst this may give noise relief for an extra hour to those under the arrival flight path it's unlikely to affect the number of arrivals before the 0600hrs end of curfew. Heathrow's present night movement quota limits movements between 2330-0600hrs to an average of 15 to 16 per night. Virtually all are arrivals and which can be achieved for the 30min period between 0530 and 0600hrs, so this noise relief offering is likely to have little or no effect on Heathrow's business.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 0
From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
I attended a presentation by Sir Howard Davies about U.K. airport capacity 18 months ago, and the case for another R/W at EGLL. An extremely knowledgable member of the audience asked him about noise limitations, and why the present restrictions were still based around the operation of Tridents, 707s and VC10s?
SHD didn't have an answer. It's time to move on. Road traffic generates more noise than modern jet aircraft.
SHD didn't have an answer. It's time to move on. Road traffic generates more noise than modern jet aircraft.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
I read somewhere recently that Heathrow Airport have indicated that it would not permit scheduled movements to land before 0530hrs local should a 3rd runway be approved. I understand that presently it is not before 0430hrs. Whilst this may give noise relief for an extra hour to those under the arrival flight path it's unlikely to affect the number of arrivals before the 0600hrs end of curfew. Heathrow's present night movement quota limits movements between 2330-0600hrs to an average of 15 to 16 per night. Virtually all are arrivals and which can be achieved for the 30min period between 0530 and 0600hrs, so this noise relief offering is likely to have little or no effect on Heathrow's business.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
Noise restrictions at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are defined relative to the range of aircraft types that currently operate there, as reference to the current Noise Restrictions Notice will confirm. Tridents and VC-10s are notable by their absence from the document.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 10,224
Likes: 36
From: In the sticks
Luton departures are quite often held up by aircraft heading either into or out of Northholt for some reason so I have also wondered how a third runway at Heathrow would affect Luton with regard to ATC.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Theoretically you could get 16 Heavies down in 30 mins with a few minutes to spare.
Applying 4nm spacing generally gets a landing rate of 36-37 per hour.
TBS aims to get 90s between Heavies.
Adding A380s would lower the landing rate, but ideally you'd bunch them together as there's no wake requirement between A380s. You could even get to a stage where the overall landing rate would go up because of that.
Applying 4nm spacing generally gets a landing rate of 36-37 per hour.
TBS aims to get 90s between Heavies.
Adding A380s would lower the landing rate, but ideally you'd bunch them together as there's no wake requirement between A380s. You could even get to a stage where the overall landing rate would go up because of that.