Taxy Route Instructions Given By ATC-your help please
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Taxy Route Instructions Given By ATC-your help please
I was recenty told by a SATCO that at their particular airfield they did not need to give the taxy route with the taxy instructions, EG the letter of the taxiway(s) to be used and that they had a local dispensation to allow them to do that.
It seems rather counterproductive for me to teach flying students to check off the taxiway routing with the aerodrome chart after been given clearance and before taxi if at some arifields they are not going to state the taxiway route, only the crossing runways and clearance limit. I would be interested to hear the views of others on this .
It seems rather counterproductive for me to teach flying students to check off the taxiway routing with the aerodrome chart after been given clearance and before taxi if at some arifields they are not going to state the taxiway route, only the crossing runways and clearance limit. I would be interested to hear the views of others on this .
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At smaller airports/airfields (and some larger ones) I am instructed and hear very often upon request for taxi "taxi holding point runway xx" which leaves it open for us how to get there and which intersection/holding point to use. Obviously the route is normally pretty obvious and nearly everyone will take the same route but it isn't specified.
I don't know if all these airports have dispensations to allow this but for what its worth any recent examples I can think of have all been continental Europe and not the UK.
I don't know if all these airports have dispensations to allow this but for what its worth any recent examples I can think of have all been continental Europe and not the UK.
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If there is nothing else moving then you don't have to give a specific route.
However, you have given away your whole airfield so unless its small or there is only 1 possible route it is prudent to still give a route.
From certain aprons, at night, I will often just give 'taxi hold *rwy holding point*'
However, you have given away your whole airfield so unless its small or there is only 1 possible route it is prudent to still give a route.
From certain aprons, at night, I will often just give 'taxi hold *rwy holding point*'
I am not a current ATCO, so things may have changed. At Jersey, where there is really only one (obvious) option for taxying to each runway, we only ever gave "taxy to Holding Point A/B/C etc" & left the pilot to take the obvious route. I can't think of any occasions when he/she didn't.
If there was any unusual situation which would have required a route which was not the obvious one, then we would specify the exact route to be taken to ensure that the a/c went the way we wanted it to. This might have been necessary to avoid W.I.P. or obstructions etc.
I would have thought that at aerodromes where there might be workable & different options to get to the holding point, that the ATCO would specify a detailed route to follow.
If there was any unusual situation which would have required a route which was not the obvious one, then we would specify the exact route to be taken to ensure that the a/c went the way we wanted it to. This might have been necessary to avoid W.I.P. or obstructions etc.
I would have thought that at aerodromes where there might be workable & different options to get to the holding point, that the ATCO would specify a detailed route to follow.
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With respect I think some of you are missing my point, I am trying to teach a habit to prevent runway incursion. What I need a student with 5 hours P1 to know when he calls for taxy from an airfield he may have never taxied for departure on before is, what is the first taxiway he needs to move upon. The routing is read back off tbe knee board and each taxiway change is mentally noted as the taxiway board is passed.
We even use an aerodrome chart and adopt the same checking procedure against the chart at our home airfield.
I completed a flight test with a FI examiner a couple of years ago and when I got into the aircraft and started checking tbe taxy route to the take off runway with the aerodrome chart, he said," What are you doing, you dont need that I know this airfield".
On the last landing the A/G operator asked if we would vacate on the last taxiway. After entering taxiway the examainer said to me, "I dont think we can get back to dispersal on this taxiway". It was so satisfying to say to him, " well if you look at my aerodrome chart you can quite clearly see we can"!
We even use an aerodrome chart and adopt the same checking procedure against the chart at our home airfield.
I completed a flight test with a FI examiner a couple of years ago and when I got into the aircraft and started checking tbe taxy route to the take off runway with the aerodrome chart, he said," What are you doing, you dont need that I know this airfield".
On the last landing the A/G operator asked if we would vacate on the last taxiway. After entering taxiway the examainer said to me, "I dont think we can get back to dispersal on this taxiway". It was so satisfying to say to him, " well if you look at my aerodrome chart you can quite clearly see we can"!
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By the way HD, I was based at LHR for 10 years and I dont ever remember being told just to follow the greens. In fact LHR taxi instructions were the clearest and most concise in Europe in my opinion.
Barcelona Ground are currently the worst in the EU for giving taxi instructions. Links and gate entries at BCN are in the form of double alphabet letters, taxiways are single letters but with numbers attached, stands are just numbers. The problem is, ATC don't pause between any of them! So we get a barrage of letters and numbers after vacating the runway such as: "Big Airline 123 take TENS5DN96" instead of "Big Airline 123 take T, EN, S5, DN, 96"
Pull what
The nearest quotes that are relevant to your query are from MATS Part 1, viz
and the associated standard phraseology - currently, very regrettably, omitted from MATS Part 1 - from the Radiotelephony Manual...
and
,
and also
From the first example, the inference is that if the route is simple and self-evident, it is not necessary to include it. However, you make a good point about teaching sound habits and perhaps you should persue that angle with that particular unit and with CAA in respect of instructions to ATC and phraseology formats. I am very suspicious about your reported claim that a unit had a "local dispensation" to omit routeing information. (Really? From whom? Is it notified in the AIP?)
2 s
The nearest quotes that are relevant to your query are from MATS Part 1, viz
11A. Taxi Clearance
11A.1 The importance of issuing clear and concise instructions to taxiing aircraft cannot be over-emphasised. The visibility from an aircraft flight deck is limited and, when taxiing, the pilot is dependent to a large degree upon Aerodrome Control to assist him in determining the correct taxi route to be followed. Essential aerodrome information is to be passed to the pilot to assist him in preventing collisions with parked aircraft and obstructions on or near the manoeuvring area.
11A.1 The importance of issuing clear and concise instructions to taxiing aircraft cannot be over-emphasised. The visibility from an aircraft flight deck is limited and, when taxiing, the pilot is dependent to a large degree upon Aerodrome Control to assist him in determining the correct taxi route to be followed. Essential aerodrome information is to be passed to the pilot to assist him in preventing collisions with parked aircraft and obstructions on or near the manoeuvring area.
STUDENT G-ABCD, Walden
Tower, taxi holding point
Alpha, runway 24
Tower, taxi holding point
Alpha, runway 24
G-ABCD, taxi holding point
G2 runway 24 via taxiway
Charlie, QNH 967
hectopascals
G2 runway 24 via taxiway
Charlie, QNH 967
hectopascals
and also
G-CD, runway 06, QNH
1008, taxi holding point B2
runway 14 via taxiway Alpha
1008, taxi holding point B2
runway 14 via taxiway Alpha
2 s
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Thank you for your responses esp 2 sheds
Further diown in MATs is says
CAP 493
Section 2 Chapter 1 Page 9
9.4
This suggests to me that taxiway routing should be given
The above is an interesting statement that not many pilots are aware of however, I wouldnt dream of crossing an active runway without a specific clearance.
I have taken this up in writing with the airfield concerned and also think that their local dispensation is more fiction than fact. Considering that this is a very busy 3 runway airfield with the majority of movements being training flights I find it a peculiar attiude but we seem to be in a disjointed industry where people spend more time talking about safety than actually actioning it!
Further diown in MATs is says
CAP 493
Section 2 Chapter 1 Page 9
9.4
Clearance Limit
9.4.1 In addition to providing instructions about the route to be followed, all taxi clearances are to contain a specific clearance limit. This clearance limit should be a location on the manoeuvring area or apron.
9.4.1 In addition to providing instructions about the route to be followed, all taxi clearances are to contain a specific clearance limit. This clearance limit should be a location on the manoeuvring area or apron.
This suggests to me that taxiway routing should be given
9.4.2 Care must be exercised when clearing an aircraft to the holding
point of the runway-in-use, for the aircraft is then permitted to cross all runways which intersect the taxi route designated in the clearance whether active or not.
point of the runway-in-use, for the aircraft is then permitted to cross all runways which intersect the taxi route designated in the clearance whether active or not.
Therefore when a taxi clearance contains a taxi limit beyond a runway , it is to contain an explicit clearance to cross that runway. If such a clearance cannot be given, the clearance limit and the specified route must exclude that runway and any route beyond it. When the controller considers it appropriate, the phrase “hold short” may be used to emphasise that the aircraft is not authorised to cross an intermediate runway, e.g. “taxi to holding point D2, hold short of runway 25R”.
