ATSOCAS
MJ, frankly, that was rude and un-necessary. Most people, as indeed I did earlier in this thread, will somewhat tongue in cheek use the term bolleaux when describing the concept that you wished to convey.
Scribblings on blankish paper I'm not going to provide but what has been discussed in a number of forums over the last few years (with military and civilian operators present) are exactly the same concepts that have been covered in the last 4 pages. ICAO (read EASA) and user requirements must be the starting points, closely followed by flight rules (not the seeming current onus on meteorological conditions) and the airspace classifications and technology required to deliver all of that. Key constraints, as ever, are financial, those who are anti-radio and or anti-electronic conspicuity (and no, I don't necessarily mean a Mode S transponder) and those who are anti-controlled air space because they see Class G as the only default option after A, C and D. I believe that you mentioned earlier about E+ being a good compromise and is a premise that, personally, I see great benefit in.
Anything like this takes time and people need to remember that but make sure that they remain engaged with the process so that it actually reflects what people need.
Scribblings on blankish paper I'm not going to provide but what has been discussed in a number of forums over the last few years (with military and civilian operators present) are exactly the same concepts that have been covered in the last 4 pages. ICAO (read EASA) and user requirements must be the starting points, closely followed by flight rules (not the seeming current onus on meteorological conditions) and the airspace classifications and technology required to deliver all of that. Key constraints, as ever, are financial, those who are anti-radio and or anti-electronic conspicuity (and no, I don't necessarily mean a Mode S transponder) and those who are anti-controlled air space because they see Class G as the only default option after A, C and D. I believe that you mentioned earlier about E+ being a good compromise and is a premise that, personally, I see great benefit in.
Anything like this takes time and people need to remember that but make sure that they remain engaged with the process so that it actually reflects what people need.
Avoid imitations
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BTW I don't know any Pro pilots that do still take a service when flying by themselves privately in class G.
But I agree that sometimes, a basic service just isn't worth the paper it's written on, or can even be counter-productive.
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Shy torque.........
But I agree that sometimes, a basic service just isn't worth the paper it's written on, or can even be counter-productive.
Thankfully there are still pilots out there that disagree with you.....otherwise I may as well hang up my headset and sign on the dole! 
But I agree that sometimes, a basic service just isn't worth the paper it's written on, or can even be counter-productive.
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Like often happens in this forum, not long until someone suggests that a good ATCO should have an interest in aviation or being a plane spotter 
Waiting for Hitler and the war to come up next...
Waiting for Hitler and the war to come up next...
Legal Tender
No one said that.
What I said was that the majority of ATCOS in my time had an interest & enthusiasm for aviation & handled a much greater volume of traffic without "refusals to enter CAS" (not that I am saying that this is now the case - just that there was far more traffic then). I never said that it was a prerequisite for the job, There must be many ATCOS who don't fall into that category & who are still able to efficiently discharge their duties.
But, I think from the comment made by Mad Jock, & others in recent times, that being enthusiastic & interested in one's job is definitely beneficial.
Certainly, what was said by local pilots in Jersey after the body of "old style" ATCOS retired 5-10 years ago, was that the service level & professionalism of ATC had dropped.
Or, perhaps they were just being nice to us !
No one said that.
What I said was that the majority of ATCOS in my time had an interest & enthusiasm for aviation & handled a much greater volume of traffic without "refusals to enter CAS" (not that I am saying that this is now the case - just that there was far more traffic then). I never said that it was a prerequisite for the job, There must be many ATCOS who don't fall into that category & who are still able to efficiently discharge their duties.
But, I think from the comment made by Mad Jock, & others in recent times, that being enthusiastic & interested in one's job is definitely beneficial.
Certainly, what was said by local pilots in Jersey after the body of "old style" ATCOS retired 5-10 years ago, was that the service level & professionalism of ATC had dropped.
Or, perhaps they were just being nice to us !
Avoid imitations
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Fisbang,
Don't be too upset, old chap! I did say SOMETIMES! You and I will have spoken over the airwaves quite a few times in the past and knowing what you do up north, I certainly wasn't referring to yourself.
However, the "sometimes" occurs when:
A) On dialling the appropriate frequency it becomes quickly obvious how busy it is. For example, at weekends on a nice day after a period of bad weather, many low timers go up for a jolly jaunt. No problem with that, but it seems an increasing number get airborne without correct pre-flight preparation or competency. They have either forgotten or never bothered to learn what is required in a call requesting a service. Frequencies are sometimes effectively blocked by barely competent (or worse) pilots who take three or four calls to pass the correct info, take ages to respond/read back and some call up for a service then immediately don't listen out. It's obvious that some only ask for a service (in some cases, they're still asking for FIS) because that's what they have been taught to do, but then they turn down the receive volume which makes it pointless. I can understand how much stress this places on the ATCO involved - has the non-responding aircraft crashed, gone to a different freq, or what?
B) Unfortunately there are some controllers who make it such hard work it appears they really don't want you on frequency at all and only begrudgingly provide the service. I prefer to use "listening squawks" where available, rather than a basic service , so ATC know I'm on frequency if they need to speak to me. If I need a QNH I'll listen to the ATIS or glean it when ATC call another aircraft.
Bearing in mind what little a basic service provides, having to listen to constant prattle to obtain it can SOMETIMES provide a major distraction and in those cases, in my opinion, can compromise the safe conduct of my flight. Rather than become one of those who turns down the volume and adds to the problem, I SOMETIMES leave the frequency early, or in cases, not make a call in the first place, having listened to the ongoing melee.
BTW, FIS, yesterday, during my daily grind, I spoke to five different agencies in one hour and obtained a Basic service from all of them. Hope that makes you feel slightly happier!
Thankfully there are still pilots out there that disagree with you.....otherwise I may as well hang up my headset and sign on the dole!
However, the "sometimes" occurs when:
A) On dialling the appropriate frequency it becomes quickly obvious how busy it is. For example, at weekends on a nice day after a period of bad weather, many low timers go up for a jolly jaunt. No problem with that, but it seems an increasing number get airborne without correct pre-flight preparation or competency. They have either forgotten or never bothered to learn what is required in a call requesting a service. Frequencies are sometimes effectively blocked by barely competent (or worse) pilots who take three or four calls to pass the correct info, take ages to respond/read back and some call up for a service then immediately don't listen out. It's obvious that some only ask for a service (in some cases, they're still asking for FIS) because that's what they have been taught to do, but then they turn down the receive volume which makes it pointless. I can understand how much stress this places on the ATCO involved - has the non-responding aircraft crashed, gone to a different freq, or what?
B) Unfortunately there are some controllers who make it such hard work it appears they really don't want you on frequency at all and only begrudgingly provide the service. I prefer to use "listening squawks" where available, rather than a basic service , so ATC know I'm on frequency if they need to speak to me. If I need a QNH I'll listen to the ATIS or glean it when ATC call another aircraft.
Bearing in mind what little a basic service provides, having to listen to constant prattle to obtain it can SOMETIMES provide a major distraction and in those cases, in my opinion, can compromise the safe conduct of my flight. Rather than become one of those who turns down the volume and adds to the problem, I SOMETIMES leave the frequency early, or in cases, not make a call in the first place, having listened to the ongoing melee.
BTW, FIS, yesterday, during my daily grind, I spoke to five different agencies in one hour and obtained a Basic service from all of them. Hope that makes you feel slightly happier!
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Haha....Shytorque......no problem, I think you will find everyone that uses the service that I and my colegues provide at Scottish info 119.875 appreciate the friendly and hopefully helpful service that we provide. Even that old fart Mad Jock appreciates us when he is back home in the UK, if only to tell me his balls are getting frozen in the back seat of a Piper Cub. Next time your north of the border make sure you pop up to say hello and should you ever find your self at Prestwick with time to kill please let me know and I will show you around our nice shiny ATC centre. Take care and safe flying from this old fart that still enjoys his job after 42 years.
