The Truth Will Out.....
Thread Starter
The Truth Will Out.....
I shall just post this link here, and let you all draw your own conclusions about just how BAD management has been - and still is - within NATS.
I hope people other than NATS ATCOs read this......
http://www.observer.co.uk/politics/s...722432,00.html
I hope people other than NATS ATCOs read this......
http://www.observer.co.uk/politics/s...722432,00.html
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Swanwick was, and still is, ringfenced by some senior engineers that have designed an ATC centre for engineers - it works just fine as far as they are concerned. The system was dumped by the Americans after spending enough $ to by West London.
By 1995 The displays had probably improved over the light grey on dark grey 'design' provided at great expense by the Royal College of Art as an engineer decided that the displays chosen by ATCO's was not good enough and he knew better! Of course, you could not see the aircraft but hey, its pretty and pleasing on the eye and apart from not being able to see the aircraft its perfect!
You guys just need to take control of YOUR systems.
By 1995 The displays had probably improved over the light grey on dark grey 'design' provided at great expense by the Royal College of Art as an engineer decided that the displays chosen by ATCO's was not good enough and he knew better! Of course, you could not see the aircraft but hey, its pretty and pleasing on the eye and apart from not being able to see the aircraft its perfect!
You guys just need to take control of YOUR systems.
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Actually Spitoon, the contracting software engineers still being employed at NATS after eight profitable years seem to drive TVRs...there are at least three of 'em at LACC, just look out of the window...
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Well, let's look on the bright side.
A contractor or project manager is usually judged to be as good as their last contract or gig....with all of the bad press Swanwick has had recently, having NATS on your CV is going to make these contractors as welcome as a f@rt in a spacesuit.
See, there is a God...and she looks like Gwyneth Dunwoody.
But howcum the NERC and NATS management c.1992 to 1997 still have jobs?
A contractor or project manager is usually judged to be as good as their last contract or gig....with all of the bad press Swanwick has had recently, having NATS on your CV is going to make these contractors as welcome as a f@rt in a spacesuit.
See, there is a God...and she looks like Gwyneth Dunwoody.
But howcum the NERC and NATS management c.1992 to 1997 still have jobs?
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It'll be re-invented long enough to keep software engineers in Ferraris.
Actually, you are correct to a degree. As I've pointed out here ad nauseam, we've gone round and round on screen design. Each time we thought, incorrectly as it turns out, that we'd been given the straight story about what the controllers really needed.
Rather than continue this s***-heaving contest, let's see if we can get it right this time. To that end, I'll go off and see if I can find out what we're currently implementing, and post my findings here. Give me a couple days.
--Dinosaur
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I would hope that you're curently not implimenting ANYTHING, at least not until ALL the operational watches have seen the PROPOSALS.
This is to be done in the TDU over the next week apparently, so we can all see what has been suggested.
My only comment is that the note stating all this is "loaded" with the threat that if we don't approve of the changes, it will be YEARS before anything gets done. The implied threat being that if we don't go along with the proposals it'll all be our fault that nothing gets done, rather than our beloved management.
Rgds BEX
This is to be done in the TDU over the next week apparently, so we can all see what has been suggested.
My only comment is that the note stating all this is "loaded" with the threat that if we don't approve of the changes, it will be YEARS before anything gets done. The implied threat being that if we don't go along with the proposals it'll all be our fault that nothing gets done, rather than our beloved management.
Rgds BEX
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...the union have already accepted...
Who the hell does speak for you? And are you capable of reaching a consensus on what is acceptable, or are half of you going to be dissatisfied no matter what we build?
--Dinosaur
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Just a note. The 'NERC' software is written by Lockheed Martin in the USA and managed (quite well actually) by IBM/Lockheed Martin contractors. hence the £150,000 a build and the occasional Ferrari (or TVR). I don't know what the costs are for NAS but I do know that they are a great deal less and, after all, NAS seems to be the dog to the Swanwick tail. (I am quite sure that would sound better the other way around!)
The only TVR owner I know of at NERC is an ATCO.
The only TVR owner I know of at NERC is an ATCO.
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Looking into the current state of the screen fonts issue, I've been able to find out only a little -- and also want to be sensitive to the fact that it remains largely a NATS internal issue at present. But here's some info:
NATS has tasked L-M to build a prototype of a new screen design. It was shown to a number of "controllers" last Friday in a lab environment. Not sure who that group actually included.
I understand (hall rumour!) that the prototype will be appearing soon in a TDU near you, targetted to as wide an audience as possible. I don't know how user feedback will be handled during that exercise. I hope this will be your opportunity to be heard.
Name deleted. It is not PPRuNe policy to name individuals who are not in the public eye - PPRuNe Radar
--Dinosaur
NATS has tasked L-M to build a prototype of a new screen design. It was shown to a number of "controllers" last Friday in a lab environment. Not sure who that group actually included.
I understand (hall rumour!) that the prototype will be appearing soon in a TDU near you, targetted to as wide an audience as possible. I don't know how user feedback will be handled during that exercise. I hope this will be your opportunity to be heard.
Name deleted. It is not PPRuNe policy to name individuals who are not in the public eye - PPRuNe Radar
--Dinosaur
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 30th May 2002 at 23:08.
Beady Eye
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Bexil 160:
If you and your fellow controllers don't make a decision next week then when will a decision be made??? The operational ATCO's from various watches who 'represent' ALL of you have responded in this general fashion "Oh yes I would use that font but I am not recommending anything because I'm not taking responsibilty for it with my watch"
What are management to do? Lead every single ATCO by the hand into the TDU and stand over them whilst they look at each font in turn????
The reason that you guys need to make a decision soon is the length of time it takes to have these changes implemented. As has been explained to you previously in this forum, system changes don't just magically get written, coded, and tested by pixies overnight. It will take MONTHS to bring changes in font through the safety and testing process. All those cars you complain about that are parked in the car park during weekdays are driven by the many people who do the behind the scenes work (and hard work it is too!!!) to bring these changes to you.
Perhaps you need to come up and see the guys (and girls) in ATC Systems Development for a 'behind the scenes' look at just what is involved in the process of bringing to the coal face changes which you desire. I'm sure that many of, what appear to be, your misconceptions would be cleared up when you realise just whats involved.
Currently the next big software drop is in November (although this might slip due to the work required on fonts). A few goodies in there for you at the coal face which should help. Requested Flight Levels is the biggie and it works really well.
If you and your fellow controllers don't make a decision next week then when will a decision be made??? The operational ATCO's from various watches who 'represent' ALL of you have responded in this general fashion "Oh yes I would use that font but I am not recommending anything because I'm not taking responsibilty for it with my watch"
What are management to do? Lead every single ATCO by the hand into the TDU and stand over them whilst they look at each font in turn????
The reason that you guys need to make a decision soon is the length of time it takes to have these changes implemented. As has been explained to you previously in this forum, system changes don't just magically get written, coded, and tested by pixies overnight. It will take MONTHS to bring changes in font through the safety and testing process. All those cars you complain about that are parked in the car park during weekdays are driven by the many people who do the behind the scenes work (and hard work it is too!!!) to bring these changes to you.
Perhaps you need to come up and see the guys (and girls) in ATC Systems Development for a 'behind the scenes' look at just what is involved in the process of bringing to the coal face changes which you desire. I'm sure that many of, what appear to be, your misconceptions would be cleared up when you realise just whats involved.
Currently the next big software drop is in November (although this might slip due to the work required on fonts). A few goodies in there for you at the coal face which should help. Requested Flight Levels is the biggie and it works really well.
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YES... I suggest that management GET AS MANY ATCOs possible to view the "proposals". If this means rostering people to (and therefore means flow control SO BE IT.) This is important. It IS managements job to make sure that the the next incarnation is RIGHT. To do that they need as much input from operational staff as possible.
Remember. The reason we are having to go through all this is a FAILURE OF MANAGEMENT. They KNEW that the current set up was not acceptable and pushed on with it regardless Isn't it about time they actually DID their job?
Oh, and if it turns out that the "proposals" ain't good enough. Then the management will need to think again, but please don't threaten us with "it could take years if you don't accept this". If it isn't good enough, it isn't good enough. END OF STORY.
Once again. Don't blame individual ATCOs. Where's the management? Leadership? If we had some there might be more of a consensus.
Time issues? NERC was SIX YEARS LATE. The mangement are on borrowed time already. They should be pulling out all the stops to fix this regardless of cost , I'll bet they aren't though.
This isn't an ATCOs vs. ATC Systems fight. Both camps have been sorely let down by the NERC Project management team and now the Swanwick operational management teams. If you want someone to rail against, look there. (not that they take ANY responsibility)
Best rgds BEX
Remember. The reason we are having to go through all this is a FAILURE OF MANAGEMENT. They KNEW that the current set up was not acceptable and pushed on with it regardless Isn't it about time they actually DID their job?
Oh, and if it turns out that the "proposals" ain't good enough. Then the management will need to think again, but please don't threaten us with "it could take years if you don't accept this". If it isn't good enough, it isn't good enough. END OF STORY.
Once again. Don't blame individual ATCOs. Where's the management? Leadership? If we had some there might be more of a consensus.
Time issues? NERC was SIX YEARS LATE. The mangement are on borrowed time already. They should be pulling out all the stops to fix this regardless of cost , I'll bet they aren't though.
This isn't an ATCOs vs. ATC Systems fight. Both camps have been sorely let down by the NERC Project management team and now the Swanwick operational management teams. If you want someone to rail against, look there. (not that they take ANY responsibility)
Best rgds BEX
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BEXIL - I think you are missing the point a little.
Money will not solve the issue and its not managements fault either. To change the fonts is a relatively straightforward,but time consuming, matter once they have been defined. But no-one from Operational ATC is willing to put their neck on the line and I don't blame them.
Your idea about all ATCOs visiting the TDU is a very good one and I think is worthwhile, but how often can we afford (in terms of time) to do this? What happens if 70% are for the new fonts and 30% against, do we throw the changes away?
I don't put forward for one minute that I have the answer. I certainly don't envy the people charged with coming up with it.
Money will not solve the issue and its not managements fault either. To change the fonts is a relatively straightforward,but time consuming, matter once they have been defined. But no-one from Operational ATC is willing to put their neck on the line and I don't blame them.
Your idea about all ATCOs visiting the TDU is a very good one and I think is worthwhile, but how often can we afford (in terms of time) to do this? What happens if 70% are for the new fonts and 30% against, do we throw the changes away?
I don't put forward for one minute that I have the answer. I certainly don't envy the people charged with coming up with it.
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I believe that every ATCO AND ATSA should be in there to look at the fonts. The way it can be done is for everyone to be given 15 mins on a break on either Afternoon shift, and then accept or decline. I agree with Bex, if we don't like it, we don't like it and so the whole process will have to start again finding a new design.
We know you are all working damn hard to get things improved, and do apprechiate it greatly, please, just don't get dis-heartened if its still not quite right, second best is what we've had now far too long.
We know you are all working damn hard to get things improved, and do apprechiate it greatly, please, just don't get dis-heartened if its still not quite right, second best is what we've had now far too long.
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NERC Dweller.....
It is entirely a management fault. The systems people put together a system as requested by the MANAGEMENT.
The Operational people told the MANAGEMENT that what they had in mind was not acceptable.
The MANAGEMENT did NOTHING.
I have been told MANY TIMES that changing the fonts is difficult. And now here you are saying that it's no big deal, just a little time consuming. Now if indeed it is true, all we need to do is agree the new fonts.
Here is an Opportunity for NERC management to get it right. All they need to do is ENSURE that as many operational ATCOs (and ATSAs) get to see and comment upon the proposals. This is a management issue. All they need to do is ARRANGE it. Anybody think they are capable of this simple task? No. I thought not.
A challenge. Prove me wrong. Prove that NERC management can actually do this. Arrange for as many operational people as possible see the proposals. If the majority APPROVE of the changes, impliment them ASAP. If the majority DISAPPROVE, come up with something else RAPIDLY. Not in years, in MONTHS.
If NERC management can't actually DO their jobs, perhaps it is time they moved on? Ala Mr. Byers.
Rgds BEX
It is entirely a management fault. The systems people put together a system as requested by the MANAGEMENT.
The Operational people told the MANAGEMENT that what they had in mind was not acceptable.
The MANAGEMENT did NOTHING.
I have been told MANY TIMES that changing the fonts is difficult. And now here you are saying that it's no big deal, just a little time consuming. Now if indeed it is true, all we need to do is agree the new fonts.
Here is an Opportunity for NERC management to get it right. All they need to do is ENSURE that as many operational ATCOs (and ATSAs) get to see and comment upon the proposals. This is a management issue. All they need to do is ARRANGE it. Anybody think they are capable of this simple task? No. I thought not.
A challenge. Prove me wrong. Prove that NERC management can actually do this. Arrange for as many operational people as possible see the proposals. If the majority APPROVE of the changes, impliment them ASAP. If the majority DISAPPROVE, come up with something else RAPIDLY. Not in years, in MONTHS.
If NERC management can't actually DO their jobs, perhaps it is time they moved on? Ala Mr. Byers.
Rgds BEX