Speed Control Non-Compliance

[DaveReidUK]

Which TP do you fly that does 340kt IAS? Thats pretty quick...

His reference was to one of those Challenger turboprops.

[FerrypilotDK]

LWhich TP do you fly that does 340kt IAS? Thats pretty quick

No....that was history. The TPs were not that fast (still faster than Cyprus Airways In LCLK though!) the 340 is my present ride, a CL 605.

[iskyfly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ereeYM0cNGc

[JT8D-17]

Slightly off topic. When ATC say "maintain high speed" or "give me best speed" how fast do they mean! High speed to me would be 320kts but maybe ATC have a different speed in mind.

[Defruiter]

It's not great phraseology really. Best thing is to ask exactly what speed they want you to fly.

[towerguy]

"shows me an IAS of 305 knots"

Does the system really show the IAS?
Ours shows the Ground speed - I.e. if descent from the south at 280Kts IAS plus a 25kt southerly at altitude, the speed displayed on screen shows 305.The two minute lead line (if displayed ) also reflects the projected position of the aircraft based on his speed over the ground, not the position he would have been if there was no wind.

While we also have the problem occasionally of no compliance - generally it's a case of allowing for extra/less/unforecast wind.

[Defruiter]

In the UK, at certain units, yes. Information is down linked via mode s and we can select it on screen. The main things we can get are selected level in the cockpit, current heading, IAS, GS, pressure setting and ROC/ROD. Many more parameters are downlinked too but are not visible to controllers.

[Denti]

@JT8D, absolutely agree, that wording is very ambiguous, sadly still very widely used. My companies SOP state that in that case I have to reduce to 250kts or slower below FL100. If we get a specific speed we can fly faster though, up to 300kts.

[Juggler25]

It depends really. For instance if your descending into the London TMA I would go with high speed being 300 knots as this is the TMA speed limit for inbounds until you drop below FL100 where it becomes 250 knots.

Totally agree it's ambiguous though and I personally try not to use it. If in doubt, just ask.

[vector4fun]

It's a "game" that never ends. For every grey haired Captain who'd like to be stable, 160 kts at the FAF, there's another in mid-life crisis in a slightly smaller jet who wanted to show us he could do 210 to the FAF and still make the second high-speed.

Before I retired, I beat my head bloody trying to impart a little wisdom in the next generation of controllers about speed control, and for every rule of thumb I would try to impart, there were three crews an hour trying to do their best to invalidate it.

To be fair, in another decade or so, some of my former trainees may some day learn to ask for winds at 3000' and 5000' when their sequences are all going to hell.


My reward was my team loved having me on finals, and now the Govt pays me a well earned, but ridiculous amount of money while I attempt to learn to control the flight of a golf ball as well as I once did a 727.

[N90-EWR]

I'm hoping to join you soon in your research of golf ball flight control!


I've had similar experiences as you described with speed control. There's never a shortage of crews that would throw a monkey wrench on my speed control teachings to my trainees.

[ATCBob]

When ATC say "maintain high speed" or "give me best speed" how fast do they mean! High speed to me would be 320kts but maybe ATC have a different speed in mind.

It's an informal request and means speed up if you can, as much as you're comfortable with. We'll watch your groundspeed and issue something more specific if it's not enough. It avoids more radio transmissions and having to slow other aircraft.

Same with "maintain slowest practical speed" -- the slower you can do now, the less vectoring and speed restrictions you will probably get later.

[PSR]

I couldn't agree more with the original post. In enroute airspace I regularly come across pilots who choose not to fly their cleared speed with no good reason and with plenty of notice to plan a clean descent at that speed. American based carriers never cease to amaze me at their ability to fly speed restrictions incredibly accurately. French crews also seem to be particularly good at it in my experience, as do the Spanish. These guys show us all what is fly-able and put some of their British colleagues to shame in my opinion.

[mad_jock]

All three of those authorities have the ability and do suspend or remove and fine their licensed pilots for violations. With no requirement to enter the court system.

UK you need to go to court for a fine to be imposed and it is extremely rare for a license to be removed. So rare I can only think of one in the last 12 years and I think that could have been a medical removal for mental health reasons.

Even if a UK pilot gets a report in their airspace unless they land there and they are arrested on landing when a fine can then be imposed all that happens is their caa contacts the UK caa. And the UK cars sends a letter to the operator saying to stop being naughty.

Some places fine for coming off noise profiles etc but if the aircraft doesn't go back they can't enforce it. It's a bit of a swine checking for these sorts of liability on airframe when you take them on. Which is why quite a few always change the reg when acquiring a new airframe.

[ferris]

WTF is the talk of removing licenses, fining, courts, etc. ? Just TAKE CONTROL. When a smartarse decides to ignore the speed, just vector him off. Have a discussion with unit management if you need to- i.e. as long as management will back you, 3 90' degree vectors (length at your discretion to suit the sequence) will usually solve non-compliance. Once captain 4-bars realises what is happening, he will stop showing off to the FO.

As usual, comes down to having a clued-up manager.

[mad_jock]

I agree completely Ferris.

Its all to do with the captains setting the tone in the cockpit.