EC making ANSPs reduce costs
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Bournemouth
EC making ANSPs reduce costs
Hi all
Not read it however i have been told that the airline lobby group as well as the CAA I believe have said that the ANSP is not doing enough to reduce the cost over the 2nd regulatory period. I have heard that they would like ANSPs to further reduce their cost by another £100m+.
Is this true? can someone put the link on for me to read the CAA's and airline lobby's response to the ANSPs revised business plan? Any other thoughts too to get an idea of the ATC community on the subject.
Thanks
Not read it however i have been told that the airline lobby group as well as the CAA I believe have said that the ANSP is not doing enough to reduce the cost over the 2nd regulatory period. I have heard that they would like ANSPs to further reduce their cost by another £100m+.
Is this true? can someone put the link on for me to read the CAA's and airline lobby's response to the ANSPs revised business plan? Any other thoughts too to get an idea of the ATC community on the subject.
Thanks
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: .
Very depressing reading, especially from the airlines. Kinda makes me wonder why I should bother giving the many shortcuts I do on a daily basis and all of the other fuel/time saving methods of operating. Thankfully, I don't think that it's the pilots that have that opinion and just the people running the airlines, though I could be wrong.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: The South
Personally, I'm of the opinion that's the bean counters talking. I'd also like to think it's far more extreme than their honest opinion, and they're merely using it for corporate leverage...
Despite the number of crews who bother to thank you on the RT for a direct being shockingly low, from the people I've spoken to on fam flights, they've always been very complimentary of the UK in comparison to many other countries.
While I'm not endorsing this as a suitable reply, I'm sure the airline folk who wrote the report would notice the difference if we all stuck to flight plan routes & levels, and stopped co-ordinating the nice continuous climbs and descents, enforced level restrictions 24/7 and complied with all MATS 2 level capping even just for a week...oh the extra fuel burn
Despite the number of crews who bother to thank you on the RT for a direct being shockingly low, from the people I've spoken to on fam flights, they've always been very complimentary of the UK in comparison to many other countries.
While I'm not endorsing this as a suitable reply, I'm sure the airline folk who wrote the report would notice the difference if we all stuck to flight plan routes & levels, and stopped co-ordinating the nice continuous climbs and descents, enforced level restrictions 24/7 and complied with all MATS 2 level capping even just for a week...oh the extra fuel burn
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
It is depressing, and as Defruiter points out, it's not the folks in big hats sitting at the 'pointy ends' who are behind these demands.
U.K. ATC is still in an enviable position. Many in big hats who sit at 'pointy ends' regard it as being among the best. This is good, an endorsement directly from 'the end user/customer' or whatever this week's buzz-words happen to be.
U.K ATC is also regarded as some of the most expensive in Europe. Well that's alright then.
As many of the airline/airport/ operators who enthusiastically contributed to this discussion will tell you……
If you want a first-class service, (be it valet parking, or even parking, use of our business-lounge or a first-class ticket), you have to pay a premium price.
Job done.
U.K. ATC is still in an enviable position. Many in big hats who sit at 'pointy ends' regard it as being among the best. This is good, an endorsement directly from 'the end user/customer' or whatever this week's buzz-words happen to be.
U.K ATC is also regarded as some of the most expensive in Europe. Well that's alright then.
As many of the airline/airport/ operators who enthusiastically contributed to this discussion will tell you……
If you want a first-class service, (be it valet parking, or even parking, use of our business-lounge or a first-class ticket), you have to pay a premium price.
Job done.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 141
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From: UK
EC making ANSPs reduce costs
If they want a first class service then suggesting new recruits self-fund their training would be a mistake. People will be accepted not on aptitude but whether or not they have the means to buy themselves a career. The calibre of students would surely drop?
Joined: Jun 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
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From: Róisín Dubh
The new generation aren't going to be paid as well, worse pensions, no allowance for training etc etc. The ANSPs are playing a dangerous game. If I was starting now I'd get my couple of years experience then 
off to the sandpit for ten years, then come back and buy a pub 
off to the sandpit for ten years, then come back and buy a pub
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,003
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
The 'self-funding' thing is interesting though.
When we went through CATC, we were told that the cost of our training to validation was about £50,000 each. I'm sure I read on the NATS web-site a few months ago that this figure is now about £220,000 a shot.
It might deter many from applying, among them a percentage who would possibly make good ATCOs.
When we went through CATC, we were told that the cost of our training to validation was about £50,000 each. I'm sure I read on the NATS web-site a few months ago that this figure is now about £220,000 a shot.
It might deter many from applying, among them a percentage who would possibly make good ATCOs.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,655
Likes: 114
From: jersey
ZOOKER
Mutual congratulations !
I'm sure you're right in your observation. My son is a WZZ EA32 pilot; he had to pay for his training & he can hardly be said to be recouping the cost of it from his (pitiful) salary !
Mutual congratulations !
I'm sure you're right in your observation. My son is a WZZ EA32 pilot; he had to pay for his training & he can hardly be said to be recouping the cost of it from his (pitiful) salary !
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 53
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From: Bournemouth
i have read the airline article. i find myself very sad and upset by the way they feel. i do not refer to the pilot for whom on every occasion possible, i will send them direct and sometimes even got in trouble for it. Im just trying to get them where they want to go as quickly as possible so they may finish a little ahead of schedule.
I'm very disappointed that this capitalist world is getting rid of most if not all professional jobs. They think that computers can do it all and at minimal cost. Good luck to them and to our future children who will have nothing to do.
We see that students going to university now come out with a degree and about 20k in debt without having a job yet. This is surely going to go up since unis now can charge what they want. That is a big debt to then find yourself looking for a job/career and work hard to work your way up to a descent wage.
There is a fundamental difference with having to pay for myself to put myself through training. I can pay about 50k for an ATPL however the failure rate is pretty low. Paying for your driving licence may not be analogous because of the difference it cost but there a very few people that fail. ATC... the learning curve is steep per course. i was told that from start to finish, for everything including overheads it is approximately 600k. Furthermore, if i am to pay to become an air traffic controller, then i would like some sort of assurance that i would become one at the end of it. i'm not going to pay 50k and then after a year i get told i haven't passed.
Going back to the airline group's response, the EC compares us to the US and the very few centres they have there and thats why their cost is low but they forgot to mention that it is also subsidised by the FAA by about 500m annually. i pay my tax to the UK. Out of my taxes i'm sure are the wages for all the politicians and so on. If the EC is making all the rules, are we demanding that they get paid too much too then. They are no longer making the rules and how much of our taxes is going to brussels?
This is a very big and complex bubble to which everyone is looking for scapegoats. Look what happened in Spain. Everyone wants someone to blame for the poor financial crisis, lets blame them. All controllers in europe are being made to look like the scapegoats. why? i dont know but maybe its to do with money. with all these cost cutting from ANSPs, do you really think that airlines will reduce their ticket prices? will i be able to go on holiday in august for 100 quid? i doubt it.
how long will it be before a certain merger that has taken a few spanish towers comes over to the UK and starts bidding on UK airports?
maybe to make more money, we should have a promotion like orange wednesdays......maybe a 2 for 1 blue skies thursdays......
Will i stop sending my pilots colleagues direct. no, of course not because i consider myself a professional (or so i think). however, this cost cutting being enforced is treading close to peoples fuses all over europe.
As for having to pay yourself to become an air traffic controller. Good luck to the guys who will take out loans/life savings to put themselves through the course and i hope they dont fail or worse, get posted somewhere they never wanted to go.
My rumour is done and thanks for the link on the airlines response
I'm very disappointed that this capitalist world is getting rid of most if not all professional jobs. They think that computers can do it all and at minimal cost. Good luck to them and to our future children who will have nothing to do.
We see that students going to university now come out with a degree and about 20k in debt without having a job yet. This is surely going to go up since unis now can charge what they want. That is a big debt to then find yourself looking for a job/career and work hard to work your way up to a descent wage.
There is a fundamental difference with having to pay for myself to put myself through training. I can pay about 50k for an ATPL however the failure rate is pretty low. Paying for your driving licence may not be analogous because of the difference it cost but there a very few people that fail. ATC... the learning curve is steep per course. i was told that from start to finish, for everything including overheads it is approximately 600k. Furthermore, if i am to pay to become an air traffic controller, then i would like some sort of assurance that i would become one at the end of it. i'm not going to pay 50k and then after a year i get told i haven't passed.
Going back to the airline group's response, the EC compares us to the US and the very few centres they have there and thats why their cost is low but they forgot to mention that it is also subsidised by the FAA by about 500m annually. i pay my tax to the UK. Out of my taxes i'm sure are the wages for all the politicians and so on. If the EC is making all the rules, are we demanding that they get paid too much too then. They are no longer making the rules and how much of our taxes is going to brussels?
This is a very big and complex bubble to which everyone is looking for scapegoats. Look what happened in Spain. Everyone wants someone to blame for the poor financial crisis, lets blame them. All controllers in europe are being made to look like the scapegoats. why? i dont know but maybe its to do with money. with all these cost cutting from ANSPs, do you really think that airlines will reduce their ticket prices? will i be able to go on holiday in august for 100 quid? i doubt it.
how long will it be before a certain merger that has taken a few spanish towers comes over to the UK and starts bidding on UK airports?
maybe to make more money, we should have a promotion like orange wednesdays......maybe a 2 for 1 blue skies thursdays......
Will i stop sending my pilots colleagues direct. no, of course not because i consider myself a professional (or so i think). however, this cost cutting being enforced is treading close to peoples fuses all over europe.
As for having to pay yourself to become an air traffic controller. Good luck to the guys who will take out loans/life savings to put themselves through the course and i hope they dont fail or worse, get posted somewhere they never wanted to go.
My rumour is done and thanks for the link on the airlines response
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,655
Likes: 114
From: jersey
Conspiracy Theories
I agree with everything that you say. I never thought that I would ever say this but, I am so very glad that there is an end to this existence - &, I'm so very glad that it is not to far away now.
I just pity my children & grandchildren ! just what have we all made of this world ?
I agree with everything that you say. I never thought that I would ever say this but, I am so very glad that there is an end to this existence - &, I'm so very glad that it is not to far away now.
I just pity my children & grandchildren ! just what have we all made of this world ?
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 555
Likes: 94
From: Waters edge
There is a bit more to it...
Single European Sky - Transport
https://www.eurocontrol.int/articles...od-2-2015-2019
https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Do...ropean-sky.pdf
Actually, most of the people involved in the planning and developments have a rather broader understanding of all the issues than you might think..
It's easier to pick holes in the IATA view, but the customers have to articulate their collective views somewhere.
Things are changing, that's life!
FF
https://www.eurocontrol.int/articles...od-2-2015-2019
https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Do...ropean-sky.pdf
Actually, most of the people involved in the planning and developments have a rather broader understanding of all the issues than you might think..
It's easier to pick holes in the IATA view, but the customers have to articulate their collective views somewhere.
Things are changing, that's life!
FF