Runway turnoff
Mad Jock
I agree in principle with your remarks, but having spoken to loads of my ex-Herc' mates who became civvie pilots,(and often flew into LHR ), about this problem there was one thing they were not aware of, and that was movement rates at airfields like LHR are decided not by ATC but by a Scheduling Committee.
This committee, if it still exists and no doubt Gonzo can tell us, consists of the operators, the owners of the airfield with a small input from ATC. They work out the movement rate and the poor old ATCO in the seat is the one who is under pressure to achieve the rate.
So, instead of 'telling' the ATCO to **** off, have a go at your own ops' department instead.
This committee, if it still exists and no doubt Gonzo can tell us, consists of the operators, the owners of the airfield with a small input from ATC. They work out the movement rate and the poor old ATCO in the seat is the one who is under pressure to achieve the rate.
So, instead of 'telling' the ATCO to **** off, have a go at your own ops' department instead.
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Originally Posted by chevvron
In the UK, providing certain conditions are met eg daylight, good vis etc, there is no need for ATC to 'instruct' a pilot to take the next turnoff as the following aircraft can be told 'land after'. Having said that, I know of several ex-colleagues who always tried to avoid using 'land after'.
Just a thought, who is culpable if an ATCO says "vacate at XX" and the aircraft leaves the paved surface? Obviously the three-striped bloke with the stick is responsible for the aircraft, but "...we were only following orders sir..."?
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and that was movement rates at airfields like LHR are decided not by ATC but by a Scheduling Committee.
what the Scheduling committee think is possible.I don't tell the ATCO to
off I just fly the plane safely and ignore unsafe requests.And speaking to ops won't change anything. You get given your slots and that's the end of it. If you don't want them someone else will take them.
We had a route which we arrived at the same time as 6 long haul heavys. Quite rightly ATC would bunch them together so they could use less airspace due vortex separation. So that gave us 10mins at least delay. So the flight was always late onto stand. The pilots said move the departure forward by 10 mins and it will be sorted. Months went by of emails about pax complaints missing there connections due to being late. Then eventually the season change came and we moved the departure time forward and got in ahead of the heavys. Then the complaints started streaming in about the flight leaving to early. Because this meant some public transport option wasn't available. So they moved the time to +10 original and the complaints started again that the route wasn't fit for purpose because they couldn't make the connections.
So you can't win, so best just to stay safe and develop thick skin and pretend that your trying to make the impossible work. ATC will blame the pilots and the pilots will blame ATC and the world will continue to turn hopefully with everyone staying on the runway with an occasional go-around.
Even if pilots/ATCO's all did go into that grey area of just on the limits some tosser would just decide that everything is working so we can fit an extra couple more in.
Even after months and months of a cunning plan not working the bean counters and marketing people will just turn deaf ears to the poor sods that have to try and implement there ideas.
who is culpable if an ATCO says "vacate at XX" and the aircraft leaves the paved surface?
If it is some committee calling the shots, then it's a business decision. The occasional go around/missed because I or the guy ahead of me doesn't want to super heat the brakes is a factor of that business decision.
Mad Jock
Sorry Pal, I implied that you would swear at the ATCO on the RT - what I should have said was ' thinking **** him/her.
Maybe West Coast is right re committees - - - I've broken my self-imposed rule of not commenting on current technical matters, being long retired,and only posting on nostalgia/happy memories stuff.
Having had my ear bent on countless times by pilot mates, I thought I'd point out it is not always the ATCO's fault that there may be tight spacing.
Back to my rocking chair!
Maybe West Coast is right re committees - - - I've broken my self-imposed rule of not commenting on current technical matters, being long retired,and only posting on nostalgia/happy memories stuff.
Having had my ear bent on countless times by pilot mates, I thought I'd point out it is not always the ATCO's fault that there may be tight spacing.
Back to my rocking chair!
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 6th Feb 2014 at 16:09. Reason: missing word
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Nah its not like that to be honest.
More like "yeh yeh what ever, say it for the tape"
You have to watch the RET's as well in winter its not unknown for you to be heading towards one at a rate of knots to get "rapid exit braking action poor, contact ground xxx.yyy" thank the lord for beta on the fans.
That did cause some swearing along the lines of "you could have told us that when you cleared us to land you bitch" didn't fall for it again mind.
More like "yeh yeh what ever, say it for the tape"
You have to watch the RET's as well in winter its not unknown for you to be heading towards one at a rate of knots to get "rapid exit braking action poor, contact ground xxx.yyy" thank the lord for beta on the fans.
That did cause some swearing along the lines of "you could have told us that when you cleared us to land you bitch" didn't fall for it again mind.
