Implications of SFC-FLxxx Danger Zones
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Implications of SFC-FLxxx Danger Zones
Hi, I hope this is posted in the correct forum...
I was wondering what are the implications of danger Zones that start at SFC to the indigenous population... i.e. anyone walking under the DZ, or sailing a boat on the sea, or sunbathing on a beach, that happens to be within the zone.
I realise some military areas such as Sennybridge have roads crossing them, and that these roads can be closed at times. However there are many public areas contained in DZs.. e.g. New Quay West Wales, Pembrey, Lyme Regis, Tilsworth village nr Boscombe Down .
Would it also be true that most of the 'missiles' are likely to be within the central portion of the zone, and that the edges are only statistically likely to have any danger problems.
I was wondering what are the implications of danger Zones that start at SFC to the indigenous population... i.e. anyone walking under the DZ, or sailing a boat on the sea, or sunbathing on a beach, that happens to be within the zone.
I realise some military areas such as Sennybridge have roads crossing them, and that these roads can be closed at times. However there are many public areas contained in DZs.. e.g. New Quay West Wales, Pembrey, Lyme Regis, Tilsworth village nr Boscombe Down .
Would it also be true that most of the 'missiles' are likely to be within the central portion of the zone, and that the edges are only statistically likely to have any danger problems.
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My wife and I visited Cape Wrath a few years ago. This involves a short boat ride across the Kyle of Durness and a couple of hours coach trip to reach the Cape. Much of the area is Danger Area and about a mile into the coach ride we were stopped at a small shed by a soldier. He had a radio with which to communicate but said it wasn't working "but I think you'll be OK". We all accepted... about 3-4 miles later we heard the biggest explosions we'd ever heard and later saw an A-10 throwing bombs at aqn offshore island! Moral: Take care near Danger Areas.
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One local to me (Eskmeals) spends it's time lobbing shells out to sea.
When active it has radar and a "Range Safety Boat" to keep un suspecting craft out of the area. If one enters they cease firing
When active it has radar and a "Range Safety Boat" to keep un suspecting craft out of the area. If one enters they cease firing
Boscombe Down's 232 would pick up shells on Larkhill Range.
There's a public viewing area at Holbeach Range (on The Wash) which is well inside the air danger area. If we had any ground attack aircraft left, you'd get a superb view of them in action.
There's a public viewing area at Holbeach Range (on The Wash) which is well inside the air danger area. If we had any ground attack aircraft left, you'd get a superb view of them in action.
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Thanks for the replies so far..
I suppose in terms of 'lethality' there are areas of a DZ that are 100% lethal, such as in the area between gun and target. Then this %age drops off towards the DZ edge, to what is considered by the cartographers to be a manageable figure (let's say 0.001%.)
Even outside this line there is still the remote possibility of an accidental round being fired by say a soldier who trips up whilst carrying his weapon.
One flight that I wanted to do was from Caernarfon to Sleap, via Bardsy Island (to see the Lighthouse and Chapel, etc.). Unfortunately I was unable to get the crossing clearance from Valley, who said the range was live. My proposed flight path would have taken me just a couple of hundred yards into the DZ 201, which is over the monks on their Island.
I suppose the line has to be drawn somewhere, at some arbitrary percentile.
I suppose in terms of 'lethality' there are areas of a DZ that are 100% lethal, such as in the area between gun and target. Then this %age drops off towards the DZ edge, to what is considered by the cartographers to be a manageable figure (let's say 0.001%.)
Even outside this line there is still the remote possibility of an accidental round being fired by say a soldier who trips up whilst carrying his weapon.
One flight that I wanted to do was from Caernarfon to Sleap, via Bardsy Island (to see the Lighthouse and Chapel, etc.). Unfortunately I was unable to get the crossing clearance from Valley, who said the range was live. My proposed flight path would have taken me just a couple of hundred yards into the DZ 201, which is over the monks on their Island.
I suppose the line has to be drawn somewhere, at some arbitrary percentile.
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 13th Dec 2013 at 18:20.
Air Danger Areas are drawn in accordance with a 'template' which is produced from guidance material in 'Pam 21' ( an MOD 'restricted' document) and as such, allowance is made for possible errors eg negligent discharges (yer squaddie letting one off accidentally) and ricochet hazard for small arms ranges, and for air ranges eg bombs/rockets, for 'forward throw' of the weapon. When I visited Holbeach, they told us A-10s had to use a different target to other ground attack aircraft as otherwise, the template would have infringed the built up area of Boston (Lincs not Mass!!)
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My advice to the OP would be to check the UK AIP. Many of the Danger Areas he listed have the ability to allow aircraft to cross the area when the dangerous stuff isn't happening ( i.e.there is a break in the firing programme). This is often promulgated as a Danger Area Crossing Service (DACS).
I know for a fact that the D201 area offers this facility and the guys who work Aberporth Radar are more than happy to help when activity permits.
If you would like me to dig up some contact details for them then feel free to PM me.
I know for a fact that the D201 area offers this facility and the guys who work Aberporth Radar are more than happy to help when activity permits.
If you would like me to dig up some contact details for them then feel free to PM me.
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I'm an Aberporth ATCO.
If you require entry into D201 then you need to call us on 119.650, if we can we will give you a clearance.
We also offer ATSOCAS when the danger area is open.
If you require entry into D201 then you need to call us on 119.650, if we can we will give you a clearance.
We also offer ATSOCAS when the danger area is open.
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Hi Arthur J N esq. Thanks for the offer. On my missed-Bardsy trip I was in contact with Valley and was low against the Llyn Peninsular North headland. But I have done that trip before (successfully) when the D201 was not active.
From my searches on the web I came up with the following quote..
'NDA and other open ranges are not designed on the absolute worst case. They are designed to capture all properly aimed projectiles with an additional degree of safety for acceptable aimer error and ricochet. Ranges are not designed to capture all projectiles from accidental or negligent discharge.'
I hope to visit Aberporth one day next year, as it is on my 'To Do List'..
In the meantime... Compliments of the season... Pete
From my searches on the web I came up with the following quote..
'NDA and other open ranges are not designed on the absolute worst case. They are designed to capture all properly aimed projectiles with an additional degree of safety for acceptable aimer error and ricochet. Ranges are not designed to capture all projectiles from accidental or negligent discharge.'
I hope to visit Aberporth one day next year, as it is on my 'To Do List'..
In the meantime... Compliments of the season... Pete
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Arthur,
that's an ATC antique you have there. The original East Midlands approach frequency, commemorating the year the airport opened.
I always wondered where it went to.
RTF c/s was 'Castledon Approach' c/w 'Castledon Homer'.
that's an ATC antique you have there. The original East Midlands approach frequency, commemorating the year the airport opened.
I always wondered where it went to.
RTF c/s was 'Castledon Approach' c/w 'Castledon Homer'.
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Back in the early 70's I worked in ATC on the Cape Wrath range.....as Heathrow Director mentioned earlier, the air weapons range is actually Garvie Island, a huge lump of rock just off the main land that was used for testing live 1000lb ordnance from the air. The navy also get a chance to play with it by bombarding it from the sea. The ATC lookout was and indeed still is on Farraid Head just across the bay from the rock. The problem we used to have was the rock was in good lobster ground and frequently fished by the local lobster boats.......during exercise periods a notice would be placed in the local pub "Smoo Cave hotel" but that was about the only effort made to warn off these fisherman......so you can see, thus fishing business is a dangerous game. 
For each platform and each weapon there is a thing called a safety trace. It is he responsibility of the firing unit be it aircraft tank or ship to ensure that the horizontal and vertical limits of that safety trace remain within the airspace reservation. Before firing, those units have to ensure that there are no vehicles, people or vessels within that trace before they can fire.
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phiggsbroadband
Not unusual to see NOTAMS with advisories regarding falling debris in relevant areas.....Hebrides for example. If you see an exclusion or prohibition sign, comply with it.
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Phiggsbroadband,
Speaking as an Ex AATC - Assistant Range Safety Officer at Pembrey Sands; The beach and immediate sea areas can be dangerous if an aircraft is doing 10 degree Strafe. Which is carried out on a Westerley heading. 27mm or 30mm rounds can ricochet and bounce in the target area and end up on the beach.
Hence the guard huts flying a red flag when in use!
Although I don't think they get the same amount of traffic as when I was there 1982 - 1986. We had Brawdy and Chivenor TWU's, Sea Harriers from Yeovilton and occasional A-10s as most regular customers with the odd Buccaneer, Jaguar or Tornado doing First Run Attacks!
Also a danger to low flying aircraft could be at times, unexploded ordinance and often time expired ordinance is blown-up with plastic explosive by Range Staff. Always best to avoid overflight unless cleared through the Range on their frequency.
Speaking as an Ex AATC - Assistant Range Safety Officer at Pembrey Sands; The beach and immediate sea areas can be dangerous if an aircraft is doing 10 degree Strafe. Which is carried out on a Westerley heading. 27mm or 30mm rounds can ricochet and bounce in the target area and end up on the beach.
Hence the guard huts flying a red flag when in use!
Although I don't think they get the same amount of traffic as when I was there 1982 - 1986. We had Brawdy and Chivenor TWU's, Sea Harriers from Yeovilton and occasional A-10s as most regular customers with the odd Buccaneer, Jaguar or Tornado doing First Run Attacks!
Also a danger to low flying aircraft could be at times, unexploded ordinance and often time expired ordinance is blown-up with plastic explosive by Range Staff. Always best to avoid overflight unless cleared through the Range on their frequency.
