A question about IFR flights leaving controlled airspace.
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Who did London Information transfer you to after they were finished?
Edit to add: I understand that London info is information, but as with London info we had to give all the details again to Cardiff, who we were what we were where from where to, pob and endurance. I asked Cardiff if they had our flight plan to which they responded yes, making me wonder why we had to give the information again.
Last edited by OhNoCB; 17th Sep 2013 at 20:17.
It's not quite correct to say there is NO IFR flight outside CAS in the US. You can certainly pick up a clearance on the ground from an uncontrolled airport in class G, and you can certainly fly at altitudes where radar cannot see you (in the mountainous regions) which might technically be below class E, but there is no notion of dropping out of a flight plan. If you lose RT in IMC (if VFR you are expected to land somewhere and sort it out) you continue on your flight planned route. Airspace will be protected for you. Even a destination procedure will be protected for you. There is a lot of class G airspace in Alaska, and I don't believe you lose your flight plan if your route of flight takes you through some of it.
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If you are on a IFR flight plan and leave controlled airspace in the UK, it is possible for you to be passed to London Info. When this happens, your IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.
In the UK the basic deal is that London Control are only interested in the portions of the flight that fall within the airways system, if you leave the system then they are not interested and it is up to the pilot's discretion who he talks to.
However if on leaving the airways system (being "outclimbed" by an airway or whatever) if there is still a remaining portion of the flight in the airways later on the flight plan is NOT lost or cancelled.
What has to be done is to contact London Info to negotiate an airways joining clearance for the next portion of the flight that falls within controlled airspace. They will then talk to the airways unit, the airways unit will look at the flight plan and see which bit falls within the airways system and issue a rejoining clearance on the basis of that.
Last edited by Contacttower; 18th Sep 2013 at 07:30.
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OhNoCB
I've been following this with interest....but I'm spurred into action by your 17th Sept addition. I must say that in my opinion....and if the facts are correct...that you received a very poor service which does not reflect the high standards of service delivery normally associated with the dedicated and professional team on London FIR.
A normal process would have been to inquire as to your intended route and with that knowledge the "FIR" would tailor the service and provide timely assistance and/or information. In this case I would have asked for an AMMAN estimate and relayed that to Cardiff.....if a clearance was not immediately available at least Cardiff would be aware and might possibly have issued a transponder code and contact frequency [probably including a "remain outside controlled airspace" or similar] prior to transfer.
Was it exceptionally busy on FIR frequency? I can't second-guess what happened on the day, but I work with all the units you have mentioned on a daily basis and they are very very good....this case should be viewed as unrepresentative of the normal service delivery standard.
A normal process would have been to inquire as to your intended route and with that knowledge the "FIR" would tailor the service and provide timely assistance and/or information. In this case I would have asked for an AMMAN estimate and relayed that to Cardiff.....if a clearance was not immediately available at least Cardiff would be aware and might possibly have issued a transponder code and contact frequency [probably including a "remain outside controlled airspace" or similar] prior to transfer.
Was it exceptionally busy on FIR frequency? I can't second-guess what happened on the day, but I work with all the units you have mentioned on a daily basis and they are very very good....this case should be viewed as unrepresentative of the normal service delivery standard.
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Obviously I won't criticise the actions of London Info on the the particular occasion described by the OP because I do not have the full story but what 055166k describes above in terms of the actions by London Info is what I have experienced as a service on the many occasions that I have been IFR in and out of the airways system...
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Chilli, do you know why? Safety or just design of airspace so that you can fly almost anywhere IFR? Or on the other hand, is the UK different by allowing it?
Most other countries have Class E airspace down to very low cruising levels, so you are "in the system" for the entire flight, although you are in an environment where other VFR traffic can fly pretty much the same way as in Class G [ok, higher weather minima, but that's it], so it's "see and avoid" for you...
In the UK, there is LOTS of completely uncontrolled Class G airspace, which is great for freedom, but poor for service... when you are leaving controlled airspace, you are temporarily "outside the system" and have to negotiate your way back into it.
For someone who is familiar with IFR (and ATS in general) outside controlled airspace in the UK, this is not much of a problem; but if you come IFR from another country, it can be a bit of a shock...
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Thanks Cobalt, that's what I was trying to work out if the UK was in any way slightly different as I'm aware of the amounts of Class E in surrounding FIRs.
Next question for someone then, when you are given IFR clearance on departure to your destination, what are you actually being cleared for? If given a SID, are you just cleared to the end of the SID or are you cleared to the FIR boundary if remaining inside CAS, or are you cleared to the point at which you leave CAS if you so happen to do that first? I know the RTF procedures and that the given clearance is to incorporate what a pilot should do in this event, however if you leave CAS, you cannot re-enter without a clearance, hence this question. I also know that in the event of a RTF that actually, expect anything to happen and just keep everything else out of the way!
Next question for someone then, when you are given IFR clearance on departure to your destination, what are you actually being cleared for? If given a SID, are you just cleared to the end of the SID or are you cleared to the FIR boundary if remaining inside CAS, or are you cleared to the point at which you leave CAS if you so happen to do that first? I know the RTF procedures and that the given clearance is to incorporate what a pilot should do in this event, however if you leave CAS, you cannot re-enter without a clearance, hence this question. I also know that in the event of a RTF that actually, expect anything to happen and just keep everything else out of the way!
Last edited by zonoma; 18th Sep 2013 at 21:45.
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zonoma,
That is a tricky one. On flights wholly within CAS, we are cleared to the destination and will go there if the radio fails, pretty much following the flight planned route and altitudes, and the only times we hold is when we have been given estimated further clearance / expected approach times or arrive earlier than at flight planned time.
But also, the rules say that when losing RT while outside controlled airspace, we should not enter it; which will apply as soon as I leave it temporarily on my planned route.
In real life, I would decide what is safe, in VMC divert to somewhere sensible, and in solid widespread IMC I would continue my flight planned route. I would also default to re-entering CAS as planned - at least then I am doing something expected, rather than turning up on the ILS of some en-route diversion unannounced and unexpected, or at the destination half an hour later because I had to fly around CAS rather than through it...
But I just made that up - what do the controllers here think?
In real life, at that point also the good old ICOM comes out of the flight bag and I would use that to talk to ATC and sort something out, and maybe the mobile might receive something as well...
That is a tricky one. On flights wholly within CAS, we are cleared to the destination and will go there if the radio fails, pretty much following the flight planned route and altitudes, and the only times we hold is when we have been given estimated further clearance / expected approach times or arrive earlier than at flight planned time.
But also, the rules say that when losing RT while outside controlled airspace, we should not enter it; which will apply as soon as I leave it temporarily on my planned route.
In real life, I would decide what is safe, in VMC divert to somewhere sensible, and in solid widespread IMC I would continue my flight planned route. I would also default to re-entering CAS as planned - at least then I am doing something expected, rather than turning up on the ILS of some en-route diversion unannounced and unexpected, or at the destination half an hour later because I had to fly around CAS rather than through it...
But I just made that up - what do the controllers here think?
In real life, at that point also the good old ICOM comes out of the flight bag and I would use that to talk to ATC and sort something out, and maybe the mobile might receive something as well...
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055166k,
I too have normally received a good service from London Info when making private flights. I am not used to using their service in this way.
I can honestly say that it did not sound busy on frequency that day. I can also say that we WERE asked for an estimate to AMMAN, but this seemed to be for little reason in the end. We were not told by London Info to remain outside CAS. We were not given an airways clearance. WE gave our estimate to AMMAN and then some time later were told to freecall Cardiff Approach.
Again, I am probably just not used to this. It did however seem strange and while I never did think our flight plan had been canceled, it certainly felt like we were dumped at random back into the system to work from the ground up.
I too have normally received a good service from London Info when making private flights. I am not used to using their service in this way.
I can honestly say that it did not sound busy on frequency that day. I can also say that we WERE asked for an estimate to AMMAN, but this seemed to be for little reason in the end. We were not told by London Info to remain outside CAS. We were not given an airways clearance. WE gave our estimate to AMMAN and then some time later were told to freecall Cardiff Approach.
Again, I am probably just not used to this. It did however seem strange and while I never did think our flight plan had been canceled, it certainly felt like we were dumped at random back into the system to work from the ground up.
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It sounds like you may well have needed to actively request airways re-entry on this occasion...not because you should have or needed to but just because as with any ATC unit different controllers sometimes have different expectations of what the aircraft needs/is expecting...
Although I probably did not need to I would always ask on initial contact with London Info if I needed airways re-entry something along the lines of...
"G-xxxx requesting basic service and in due course onward airways clearance from (wherever my flight plan indicated) in accordance with my flight plan"
London Info would then get talking to whoever it was necessary to...
Although I probably did not need to I would always ask on initial contact with London Info if I needed airways re-entry something along the lines of...
"G-xxxx requesting basic service and in due course onward airways clearance from (wherever my flight plan indicated) in accordance with my flight plan"
London Info would then get talking to whoever it was necessary to...
Last edited by Contacttower; 19th Sep 2013 at 07:01.
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It sounds like you may well have needed to actively request airways re-entry on this occasion...not because you should have or needed to but just because as with any ATC unit different controllers sometimes have different expectations of what the aircraft needs/is expecting...
Although I probably did not need to I would always ask on initial contact with London Info if I needed airways re-entry something along the lines of...
"G-xxxx requesting basic service and in due course onward airways clearance from (wherever my flight plan indicated) in accordance with my flight plan"
London Info would then get talking to whoever it was necessary to...
Last edited by Contacttower; 19th Sep 2013 at 08:01.
Although I probably did not need to I would always ask on initial contact with London Info if I needed airways re-entry something along the lines of...
"G-xxxx requesting basic service and in due course onward airways clearance from (wherever my flight plan indicated) in accordance with my flight plan"
London Info would then get talking to whoever it was necessary to...
Last edited by Contacttower; 19th Sep 2013 at 08:01.
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I wasn't implying otherwise...
I was just indicating that when talking to London Info and needing an airways joining or rejoining clearance some of the radio operators might deduce that you were indeed of an onward clearance and start going about getting one automatically and then relay it to you...others might not unless specifically requested.
I was just indicating that when talking to London Info and needing an airways joining or rejoining clearance some of the radio operators might deduce that you were indeed of an onward clearance and start going about getting one automatically and then relay it to you...others might not unless specifically requested.
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Maybe I misunderstood your post. I'm not at London Info and don't really know how they work, but as a controller I would never arrange airways joining clearance for anyone who hadn't asked me to. How do I know that a) they want it and b) can comply with it? There's no point in wasting my time and the airways contoller's time coordinating it if it's not going to be used. Plenty of people change their routing and decide to remain outside when airborne and the weather is better than forecast, for example. I think it's best to assume you have to ask every time.
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How do I know that a) they want it and b) can comply with it
I think we are perhaps making more of this than it warrants...in the end it comes down a basic principle of dealing with ATC...if in doubt...ask
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Originally Posted by reportyourlevel
There's no point in wasting my time and the airways contoller's time coordinating it if it's not going to be used. Plenty of people change their routing and decide to remain outside when airborne and the weather is better than forecast, for example. I think it's best to assume you have to ask every time
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Thanks everyone for the input.
I just wanted to get a better understanding from the ATC side of things, which I feel I certainly have a better understanding of now.
Will hopefully lead to less confusion in the future!
Many thanks again.
I just wanted to get a better understanding from the ATC side of things, which I feel I certainly have a better understanding of now.
Will hopefully lead to less confusion in the future!
Many thanks again.
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Originally Posted by reportyourlevel
Talkdownman
Post 1261! Have a safe day :-)
Post 1261! Have a safe day :-)
An interesting difference in philosophy between the UK and US. In the US, filing an IFR flight plan and receiving a clearance is effectively a contract between the pilot and the system. The fact that the flight moves into class G ("uncontrolled") airspace doesn't invalidate that contract. Pilots are not expected to change their mind and go somewhere else just because ATC can't tell them what to do because of airspace classification. ATC expects the pilot to follow the plan, and show up as expected even if there are periods of no radio contact (because of terrain or RT failure). Pilots expect ATC to handle their flight when they arrive. Yes, they may have to hold as directed, or take a vector, but they are never "out" of the system.
