My ATC Issues
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My ATC Issues
Hello folks.
I am part of a new batch of ATC, not EC, in my home country. I work APP/TWR, class C airspace, procedural environment. We have VOR/DME and STARs.
During the training I've heard a lot the phase "the BOOK! do it by the BOOK!". And it seems logical to do it by the book so everyone is happy. Thing is, some parts are not in the book, or I haven't found them, to my knowledge they are found out via experience, so I'm here to learn from your experience.
I am aware that different countries have different procedures and particularities, while maintaining the EC standards, but even if we don't have class B like England, doesn't mean a pilot that flies in class B will do a totally different job in class C.
Side note, most of my issues concern pilots too, but there might be some that only concern ATCOs, so I apologise for this, since this is a pilot forum, I hope you allow that.
So here goes:
#1 Takeoff/Landing clearance
I learned a specific way to say this, but I've heard a lot of different ones and I am wondering what's the proper way, since I couldn't find it in the specific phraseology( I did in Eurocontrol Standard Phraseology book, but not complete).
I say it like this: Callsign(CS), wind from xx, RWY xx, clear for takeoff/to land.
Why? Because the wind is a major factor in picking the RWY in use, RWY so there are no issues concerning which RWY to land on and finally the authorization.
In EC book, I found: CS, clear for TO/to land RWY xx. I sense this is incomplete due to lack of wind, but again I'm fresh in this job, so I might be mistaking.
In my tower, the phrase is: CS, clear for TO/to land, RWY xx, wind from xx.
The reason I'm not happy with this is that there is room for confusion where to land(imagine a late landing clearance, not 3 more minutes till touchdown) and also what if the wind is too strong(was 5 kt from behind, still acceptable, but now it's 10-15kt, way too much).
I will however follow what OJTIs say, since they are way more experienced than I am, I just want to understand why we say it like this.
#2 We have STARs here. So I ask the pilots, do you prefer the clearance for ILS APP right after we give clearance for STAR? Or do you prefer right after the turn for intercepting ILS?
Side note: we specify that "on final" you are cleared for ILS so there are no confusions.
Thank you.
Have a good day.
I am part of a new batch of ATC, not EC, in my home country. I work APP/TWR, class C airspace, procedural environment. We have VOR/DME and STARs.
During the training I've heard a lot the phase "the BOOK! do it by the BOOK!". And it seems logical to do it by the book so everyone is happy. Thing is, some parts are not in the book, or I haven't found them, to my knowledge they are found out via experience, so I'm here to learn from your experience.
I am aware that different countries have different procedures and particularities, while maintaining the EC standards, but even if we don't have class B like England, doesn't mean a pilot that flies in class B will do a totally different job in class C.
Side note, most of my issues concern pilots too, but there might be some that only concern ATCOs, so I apologise for this, since this is a pilot forum, I hope you allow that.
So here goes:
#1 Takeoff/Landing clearance
I learned a specific way to say this, but I've heard a lot of different ones and I am wondering what's the proper way, since I couldn't find it in the specific phraseology( I did in Eurocontrol Standard Phraseology book, but not complete).
I say it like this: Callsign(CS), wind from xx, RWY xx, clear for takeoff/to land.
Why? Because the wind is a major factor in picking the RWY in use, RWY so there are no issues concerning which RWY to land on and finally the authorization.
In EC book, I found: CS, clear for TO/to land RWY xx. I sense this is incomplete due to lack of wind, but again I'm fresh in this job, so I might be mistaking.
In my tower, the phrase is: CS, clear for TO/to land, RWY xx, wind from xx.
The reason I'm not happy with this is that there is room for confusion where to land(imagine a late landing clearance, not 3 more minutes till touchdown) and also what if the wind is too strong(was 5 kt from behind, still acceptable, but now it's 10-15kt, way too much).
I will however follow what OJTIs say, since they are way more experienced than I am, I just want to understand why we say it like this.
#2 We have STARs here. So I ask the pilots, do you prefer the clearance for ILS APP right after we give clearance for STAR? Or do you prefer right after the turn for intercepting ILS?
Side note: we specify that "on final" you are cleared for ILS so there are no confusions.
Thank you.
Have a good day.
Last edited by elafrican; 14th Aug 2013 at 07:14.
It's tricky to attempt to answer your questions without knowing the rules of the country you are based in.
As a first point of reference, I would look to the MATS published in your country. In the RAC 5 (aerodrome control) section you will (should) find "elements of a take-off clearance", and which items should be included/may be omitted.
Presumably this is "the book" you refer to, and you have reference to it? Is there anything you need to know that isn't present in this publication?
If certain elements (for example, elements of a take-off clearance) are not present in "the book", I strongly recommend you to ask the person who is telling you to "do it by the book" just where exactly in the book it is.
If not in your book, the relevant ICAO doc should be used. This should be available to examine at your unit, if your MATS doesn't detail the information required.
I would want to be very clear on this before conducting any OJT. Big can of worms.
PS: since you refer to "clearance for an ILS", I presume you also have ILS available, in addition to VOR and DME.
As a first point of reference, I would look to the MATS published in your country. In the RAC 5 (aerodrome control) section you will (should) find "elements of a take-off clearance", and which items should be included/may be omitted.
Presumably this is "the book" you refer to, and you have reference to it? Is there anything you need to know that isn't present in this publication?
If certain elements (for example, elements of a take-off clearance) are not present in "the book", I strongly recommend you to ask the person who is telling you to "do it by the book" just where exactly in the book it is.
If not in your book, the relevant ICAO doc should be used. This should be available to examine at your unit, if your MATS doesn't detail the information required.
I would want to be very clear on this before conducting any OJT. Big can of worms.
PS: since you refer to "clearance for an ILS", I presume you also have ILS available, in addition to VOR and DME.
Last edited by Tarq57; 14th Aug 2013 at 08:51.
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<<The reason I'm not happy with this is that there is room for confusion where to land (imagine a late landing clearance, not 3 more minutes till touchdown) and also what if the wind is too strong(was 5 kt from behind, still acceptable, but now it's 10-15kt, way too much). >>
At some places a late landing clearance might not be given until 30 seconds to touchdown but this obviously depends on traffic density. Wether the tailwind is too strong to land is up to the pilot. However, most airfields will have wind criteria laid down in the local instructions and ATC will decide the runway after consultaion with the met office, etc.
I agree 100% with Tarq57 - use the book and in case of any query, ask your OJTI or the Supervisor.
At some places a late landing clearance might not be given until 30 seconds to touchdown but this obviously depends on traffic density. Wether the tailwind is too strong to land is up to the pilot. However, most airfields will have wind criteria laid down in the local instructions and ATC will decide the runway after consultaion with the met office, etc.
I agree 100% with Tarq57 - use the book and in case of any query, ask your OJTI or the Supervisor.
A lot of the rules you follow will be illogical and /or arbitrary, but (especially as a trainee) they are filters that can be used against you. Sometimes it is best to know what silly rules you are expected to follow and follow them. My advice would be to establish what your OJTIs expect and do it. When you have a licence you can be in a position to influence the rules and get them tweaked to something more logical, but it can be a struggle all the way to ICAO when a lot of people follow rules with no understanding and don't like them to be changed. There is part of me that would rather follow silly universal rules than have sensible local rules which differ from every other airport/airspace/country.
procedural environment
Follow local procedures.
If you have an issue/difficulty ask your OJTI or local management.
If in doubt ask do not assume.
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Thank you for fast replies.
Well we follow the ICAO Annexes and 4444 Document. The book I ment was 4444. I didn't specify so you don't think I follow ONLY that book, but higher experienced people told me that's the ATCO bible
Well in our doc 4444 translation book, the phraseology is: RWY xx, clear to land(without wind).
Maybe I heard that while at sim and got stuck to my head.
What phraseology do you ATCOs use for TO/land?
Dan Dare, yes, some rules and regulation seem weird, I am an ingineer by default so I guess I try to find out the logic in things. I'll learn to say it like those who published them, since they know what they are writing there.
Tarq57, yes, we have ILS APP.
HD, that's why I thought wind should be first, since the decision of landing or go around is up to the pilot, thus he should know what he's up against. I don't have a PPL or any PL, so I'm not familiar with how the pilots react, but I was thinking after hearing "clear for TO/to land", they will focus on TO/landing and maybe not pay attention to the rest? Just my wild guess.
The reasons I ask these questions is that I want to be very good at what I do, do it by the standards so nobody gets into trouble and people get hurt and all those kind of stuff.
Have a nice day.
Well we follow the ICAO Annexes and 4444 Document. The book I ment was 4444. I didn't specify so you don't think I follow ONLY that book, but higher experienced people told me that's the ATCO bible
Well in our doc 4444 translation book, the phraseology is: RWY xx, clear to land(without wind).
Maybe I heard that while at sim and got stuck to my head.
What phraseology do you ATCOs use for TO/land?
Dan Dare, yes, some rules and regulation seem weird, I am an ingineer by default so I guess I try to find out the logic in things. I'll learn to say it like those who published them, since they know what they are writing there.
Tarq57, yes, we have ILS APP.
HD, that's why I thought wind should be first, since the decision of landing or go around is up to the pilot, thus he should know what he's up against. I don't have a PPL or any PL, so I'm not familiar with how the pilots react, but I was thinking after hearing "clear for TO/to land", they will focus on TO/landing and maybe not pay attention to the rest? Just my wild guess.
The reasons I ask these questions is that I want to be very good at what I do, do it by the standards so nobody gets into trouble and people get hurt and all those kind of stuff.
Have a nice day.
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Here are my 2 cents from my APP/TWR class C location :
We include wind information in landing clearance , even though in our local book we are not required to do it. We always did it , starting from sim. I reckon this is so as a safeguard - doc 4444/7030 say that we should inform the aircraft when wind speed changes with 2/5/10 kt from tail/side/front.
Looking in the ICAO documents doc 9432 ( manual of radiotelephony ) the landing clearance is issued without wind information.
Dan Dare's advice is sensible and follows my experience gained while in OJTI
We include wind information in landing clearance , even though in our local book we are not required to do it. We always did it , starting from sim. I reckon this is so as a safeguard - doc 4444/7030 say that we should inform the aircraft when wind speed changes with 2/5/10 kt from tail/side/front.
Looking in the ICAO documents doc 9432 ( manual of radiotelephony ) the landing clearance is issued without wind information.
Dan Dare's advice is sensible and follows my experience gained while in OJTI
but I think I got away with it ! lol 
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Response
Hey. In the 10 years I have been a tower controller, I usually issue take-off/landing clearance as follows:
1. Call sign
2. Wind (if tailwind or strong/gusting)
3. Take-off/Landing clearance
The "execution command" is last.
1. Call sign
2. Wind (if tailwind or strong/gusting)
3. Take-off/Landing clearance
The "execution command" is last.
