Spanish ATC? WHY?
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as you can see spanish atcos face huge amounts of pressure which have nothing to do with the traffic load
Its connected to the weight of their EU busting wallets, isn't it?
Certainly unconnected with traffic load or professionalism. Without question.:ugh
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For me it´s easy: Flight plan route, only until I retire.
I don´t think controllers in UK, Germany, France or other EU country have been forced to work 1750 hours each year. We were.
No other controllers in EU were militarized. We were.
I could continue, but no reason...
As some people said before, this can´t be solved in few time, will take at least a generation.
By the way, just 2 days ago one of our sectors had 130% of its capacity, not a bad oveload. Of course will be our fault for giving directs and changing TFCs from their requested flight level (We really had that answer more than once after complained for overloads, and you wonder why we don´t give DCTs or change lvl???).
Good luck when flying over sPAIN.
I don´t think controllers in UK, Germany, France or other EU country have been forced to work 1750 hours each year. We were.
No other controllers in EU were militarized. We were.
I could continue, but no reason...
As some people said before, this can´t be solved in few time, will take at least a generation.
By the way, just 2 days ago one of our sectors had 130% of its capacity, not a bad oveload. Of course will be our fault for giving directs and changing TFCs from their requested flight level (We really had that answer more than once after complained for overloads, and you wonder why we don´t give DCTs or change lvl???).
Good luck when flying over sPAIN.
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Working 1750 hours a year.
I symphathize with the spanish controllers as I can´t imagine the current situation to be especially enjoyable
but:
That comes down to ~145,8 hrs a month, 36,5 hrs a week, which with all due respect is not a whole hell of a lot. How many hours were you working before the military stepped in and the current situation materialized?
I work a 38 hrs week and approximately 15-16 days a month, how is your rotation with a 36,5 hrs week?
one of our sectors had 130% of its capacity, not a bad oveload
I don´t think controllers in UK, Germany, France or other EU country have been forced to work 1750 hours each year. We were.
I work a 38 hrs week and approximately 15-16 days a month, how is your rotation with a 36,5 hrs week?
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Good question SThor, and bear in mind that their 1750 hours are comprised of 1670 mandatory plus 80 overtime, should they be required.. which probably are in today's climate, I'd imagine.
chevvron, I haven't worked in the UK so can't comment on any unfavourable discriminatory practices there. If they do exist, I've been blissfully unaware...
chevvron, I haven't worked in the UK so can't comment on any unfavourable discriminatory practices there. If they do exist, I've been blissfully unaware...
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Nice try guys, but don´t bother. They already have all the answers and dont want to hear anymore.
Spanish controller-bashing is a well known PPrune sport.
Best regards.
Spanish controller-bashing is a well known PPrune sport.
Best regards.
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Do you really want to know how we worked in summer 2010?
A normal rotation was Morning-Afternoon-Morning-Afternoon-Zulu (morning + night) and then 24 hours rest until starts again. 5 days of work (one with 2 shifts) sleeping day off. But once a month we enjoyed a free day, was only 4 days rotation!.
Several controllers worked 30 turns in a month.
And, who the hell Works 1750 hours in shifts? including nights, hollydays, christmas and so on! Only in Spain.
And for your question: I worked 1200 hours/year, as my conditions said. And I would have been happier if they had hired more people, you know we have about 6 million unemployed, instead forcing me to work. Yeah, they paid me more, but I still want my FREE TIME!.
A normal rotation was Morning-Afternoon-Morning-Afternoon-Zulu (morning + night) and then 24 hours rest until starts again. 5 days of work (one with 2 shifts) sleeping day off. But once a month we enjoyed a free day, was only 4 days rotation!.
Several controllers worked 30 turns in a month.
And, who the hell Works 1750 hours in shifts? including nights, hollydays, christmas and so on! Only in Spain.
And for your question: I worked 1200 hours/year, as my conditions said. And I would have been happier if they had hired more people, you know we have about 6 million unemployed, instead forcing me to work. Yeah, they paid me more, but I still want my FREE TIME!.
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I´m not trying to belittle spanish ATCO´s but:
I work 1672 hrs in shifts (38 hrs a week, 152 hrs a month x 11 months, including nights, easter, christmas etc etc and so on. 24/7/365. Not 1750 hrs but still. That is without a single minute of overtime.
1200 hrs/year comes down to 25 hrs a week, quite a difference from 1750 hrs.
When working 1200 hrs how exactly were you forced to work more? (Prior to the military stepping in?)
Again, not trying to put you guys down, just curious...
And, who the hell Works 1750 hours in shifts? including nights, hollydays, christmas and so on! Only in Spain.
And for your question: I worked 1200 hours/year, as my conditions said. And I would have been happier if they had hired more people, you know we have about 6 million unemployed, instead forcing me to work. Yeah, they paid me more, but I still want my FREE TIME!.
When working 1200 hrs how exactly were you forced to work more? (Prior to the military stepping in?)
Again, not trying to put you guys down, just curious...
Last edited by SThor; 10th Aug 2013 at 11:52. Reason: Corrected my math and grammar...
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Foreword:
I strongly condemn the way ATCOs in Spain were (and are) treated, and I support your fight, if there is any, to bring things back to normality.
But:
@Sonnendec
PPRunE as a Spanish controller-bashing arena??
Ok... Can you answer me a simple question. Why do you think this is happening? Why do you think that many pilots and some of the controllers here and there express their negative feelings towards the Spanish airspace management?
I mean, there must be an answer... We have pilots from all over the world, and controllers too. Controllers who work in their home country, for the state-owned ANSP, or private service providers, and ATCOs who work as "mercenaries" in foreign countries. Some of these earn a lot, others much less. Some of them have the luxury of a Union, others have no protection at all... And again, some of the controllers are working in extreme traffic loads (sector capacity is just one of the numbers), while others can drink coffee and read newspapers...
But as you say, only the Spanish guys are being "bashed". Why? I want to hear your opinion?
@Akhorahil
I see, in 2010, 3 years ago, you were living in a nightmare. 30 turns in a month is almost unimaginable - in EU at least.
But today, if we take 4-6-4 (off-on-off) or 3-5-3, or approximately 19 days of work in a month, 8 or 8.30 hours shifts - depends on hour of the day, sector etc.., 12 months. Add one day of mandatory overtime (at home stand-by) per month, plus around 60-80 hours of voluntary (extra paid) work done off the sector (OJTI or EXAM, writing presentations or workbooks for classes)... At the end you can deduct 200-250 hours of annual leave... I think of numbers around 1700. EU of course... And I think we all work 24/7/365, regardless of Christmas, New Year's eve, Labor Day...
That said, I still think that your two statements;
"Flight plan route, only until I retire" and "Good luck when flying over sPAIN" are utterly unprofessional. Regardless of your personal feelings towards your employer, or your low morale, you still have to give your best. Because your "clients" are not the one to blame. And because you have to stand tall and show all your expertise and knowledge! Being and ATCO is something you should be proud of, and not just sit there and wait for the pension all poor and whining.
Your words remind me of a well known businessman from Ireland, who called ATCOs "overpaid and underworked bunch of...". Well, the call sign RYR still gets directs and requested FL in my area... The pilots and passengers are not guilty if the head-of is one d-head...
As said at the beginning, I express all my support to you Spanish colleagues. But here and there a mirror to look in, comes handy...
I strongly condemn the way ATCOs in Spain were (and are) treated, and I support your fight, if there is any, to bring things back to normality.
But:
@Sonnendec
PPRunE as a Spanish controller-bashing arena??
Ok... Can you answer me a simple question. Why do you think this is happening? Why do you think that many pilots and some of the controllers here and there express their negative feelings towards the Spanish airspace management?
I mean, there must be an answer... We have pilots from all over the world, and controllers too. Controllers who work in their home country, for the state-owned ANSP, or private service providers, and ATCOs who work as "mercenaries" in foreign countries. Some of these earn a lot, others much less. Some of them have the luxury of a Union, others have no protection at all... And again, some of the controllers are working in extreme traffic loads (sector capacity is just one of the numbers), while others can drink coffee and read newspapers...
But as you say, only the Spanish guys are being "bashed". Why? I want to hear your opinion?
@Akhorahil
I see, in 2010, 3 years ago, you were living in a nightmare. 30 turns in a month is almost unimaginable - in EU at least.
But today, if we take 4-6-4 (off-on-off) or 3-5-3, or approximately 19 days of work in a month, 8 or 8.30 hours shifts - depends on hour of the day, sector etc.., 12 months. Add one day of mandatory overtime (at home stand-by) per month, plus around 60-80 hours of voluntary (extra paid) work done off the sector (OJTI or EXAM, writing presentations or workbooks for classes)... At the end you can deduct 200-250 hours of annual leave... I think of numbers around 1700. EU of course... And I think we all work 24/7/365, regardless of Christmas, New Year's eve, Labor Day...
That said, I still think that your two statements;
"Flight plan route, only until I retire" and "Good luck when flying over sPAIN" are utterly unprofessional. Regardless of your personal feelings towards your employer, or your low morale, you still have to give your best. Because your "clients" are not the one to blame. And because you have to stand tall and show all your expertise and knowledge! Being and ATCO is something you should be proud of, and not just sit there and wait for the pension all poor and whining.
Your words remind me of a well known businessman from Ireland, who called ATCOs "overpaid and underworked bunch of...". Well, the call sign RYR still gets directs and requested FL in my area... The pilots and passengers are not guilty if the head-of is one d-head...
As said at the beginning, I express all my support to you Spanish colleagues. But here and there a mirror to look in, comes handy...
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So SThor how many hours do you work every year? And please don't count your holidays, I'm sure you don't work more than 1450 hours.
Tell me please, let us all know!!
Do you work any month 170 hours? I do.
Have you ever been forced to work on any of your days off? I have.
Have you ever worked at 110%, 120% or 130% of you sector capacity? I have.
Now please tell us how many hours you work.
Thank you
Tell me please, let us all know!!
Do you work any month 170 hours? I do.
Have you ever been forced to work on any of your days off? I have.
Have you ever worked at 110%, 120% or 130% of you sector capacity? I have.
Now please tell us how many hours you work.
Thank you
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Foreword:
I strongly condemn the way ATCOs in Spain were (and are) treated, and I support your fight, if there is any, to bring things back to normality.
I strongly condemn the way ATCOs in Spain were (and are) treated, and I support your fight, if there is any, to bring things back to normality.
as far as I know,ex-YU
around 156 hours /flat rate (everything is including )
Unofficially lowest around 110 ( a few lucky units) and 180 maximum (again a few and remote *)
and if understand correctly Europe is somewhere there also *(in terms of ATCOs working hours
)12x156= 1872
overtime is not uncommon,but starts after these standard hours
"six four" (standard Middle East option ) translates as 144 monthly multiply 12 equals 1728
and yes people going from Europe to Middle East.
Just before saying that nobody likes you,refer to numbers.
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Don't you lot do half an hour on half an hour off. If so you really only work about 850 hours per year.
To answer another question most Ops and crewing bods work 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 off, early/late/night shifts. With 4-6 weeks leave a year that's somewhere around 2200-2300 hours per year...and not just in Spain either. Oh and for not much more than minimum wage.
I can work up to 2000 hours per year and up to 16 hour duties with NO break and then be positioned, without time limit, to anywhere the company chooses to make me go. Sometimes I start at 0400 and sometimes that's when I finish aaaand it's generally random. And no, I can't refuse except on safety grounds.
Pin.....pulled.
To answer another question most Ops and crewing bods work 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 off, early/late/night shifts. With 4-6 weeks leave a year that's somewhere around 2200-2300 hours per year...and not just in Spain either. Oh and for not much more than minimum wage.
I can work up to 2000 hours per year and up to 16 hour duties with NO break and then be positioned, without time limit, to anywhere the company chooses to make me go. Sometimes I start at 0400 and sometimes that's when I finish aaaand it's generally random. And no, I can't refuse except on safety grounds.
Pin.....pulled.
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To be honest although it is not economical i'm quite happy with the spanish flight plan route. At least i don't get vectored right into other aircraft as they used to do before that.
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I agree with UpperATC in that I support spanish atco´s and their plight, and he is right, a quick look in a mirror can help everyone.
If you (spanish guys?) reread my first post:
However you guys are way too sensitive and go on the defensive at the drop of a hat...
I´m not the enemy and as I said I support spanish ATCO´s.
To answer atcstudent:
1672 hrs mandatory. Say I work 3 extra shifts per month I go up to 1985,5 hrs (180,5 times 11 months as per below) voluntary.
I have, a standard 152 hrs month with say 3 or 4 extra shifts (9,5 hrs each), 28,5 hrs / 38 hrs, comes down to 180,5 and 190 hrs respectively. Granted, all voluntary and I would not be pleased if my company tried to force me to work on days off.
I have not and I hope I never will be.
Yes and no. Where I work there is a dynamic sectorisation dependant on traffic flow. Have been anywhere between yawning and bursting.
I´m not trying to be a di*k...
If you (spanish guys?) reread my first post:
I symphathize with the spanish controllers as I can´t imagine the current situation to be especially enjoyable
I´m not the enemy and as I said I support spanish ATCO´s.
To answer atcstudent:
So SThor how many hours do you work every year? And please don't count your holidays, I'm sure you don't work more than 1450 hours.
Tell me please, let us all know!!
Tell me please, let us all know!!
Do you work any month 170 hours? I do.
Have you ever been forced to work on any of your days off? I have.
Have you ever worked at 110%, 120% or 130% of you sector capacity? I have.
I´m not trying to be a di*k...
Last edited by SThor; 10th Aug 2013 at 10:48.
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I stopped looking at this thread a few days ago when the known meme started again: "you give priority to national carriers". I have answered that same line a few times here and saw no further point to it.
Now I must admitt that this thread has turned out to be fairly civilized contrary to Sonnendec's opinion so here go my two cents.
As has been pointed out before, perception of giving priority to spanish carriers can just arise due to the increased probability of finding spaniards. Since there is an underlying preconception that we do prioritize them any direct given to a spaniard will be significantly more noticed than on non-spaniards. This is called confirmation bias.
Another fact that has been pointed out is that it actually takes extra effort to alter the "natural" sequence ... and most of you don't believe we are capable of it as masterly stated by Dan Dare.
Another fact that none of you seems to consider is that even if we were capable to give that little extra help to spanish carriers... WHY would we do it? You might not know that we have been branded criminals by 99% of spanish society of all political inclinations or income. Our reputation is on par with dregs of society, in fact, when making new aquitances and asked about my job I say something like "I work at the airport with a computer" or something like that. Not out of deception but because I know (firsthand experience) that if they knew my real job they would immediately biased against me without allowing the chance to know me.
So as you see I have absolutely no gratitude for this country and I save all my national pride for the national football team. Spain and all it's petty rabble who stoned my reputation without a second thought can rot in our current economic crisis for all that I care. Do ut des. Can anybody tell me why I should be favoring spanish carriers?
In any case I will concede one point explaining one situation where there is probably a bias towards favoring spanish-speaking carriers. Not all spanish atcos are really fluent in english. All manange ICAO lvl4 but are not at ease with heavy accent or complicated explanations. If such an atco needs to issue complicated insructions in order to use a space in the sequence, it is very likely that he'll do so in spanish, not out of a nationality preference but because if he tried to explain the same situation in english it would take much longer and then the chance would no longer be there.
The other main topic in this thread is about working hours. Initially they don't seem too much and it is also true that years ago some people worked way over that (and were very handsomely paid for it, all be told). Nevertheless there are now two main differences (and no, salary has also changed but is not really one of the key factors despite what some may think).
1) Before some who felt fit enough or worked in some easier sectors decided voluntarily to increase their working hours but some others didn't even if they would have been also richly paid. They stuck to 1200 hours or thereabouts... these people are now having the most trouble adjusting. And let's keep in mind that with current reduced rest time 1500 hours today are not the same as 1500 hours 4 years ago.
2) Previously you could plan ahead your life. Currently you get shift planning with one month in advance and it can be changed more or less at will by Aena. For example they can tell you on your way out of the job (or while in your position, handling live traffic) that you are required for duty tomorrow. I have the information (third hand, but I trust the source) about a guy making some shift changes with colleagues in order to have free a specific date (brother's wedding if I remember correctly), handing all the changes to HR... and then HR answering with a smile: OK, changes approved and now that you have day XXX available, here is a mandatory service for that day.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"? Might be, but we have here close seconds. Oh, and next time ask any spanish atco about how AENA understands maternity leave and worktime reduction to raise children... or did I mention that at my unit people were recalled and put to work while they were on holidays?
Back on topic, it's not only how much we have to work know but rather more the fact that we can't plan for anything. We are at the complete mercy (or rather lack of thereof) from Aena to be forced to work at their whim.
Hope this helps with the explaining.
Now I must admitt that this thread has turned out to be fairly civilized contrary to Sonnendec's opinion so here go my two cents.
As has been pointed out before, perception of giving priority to spanish carriers can just arise due to the increased probability of finding spaniards. Since there is an underlying preconception that we do prioritize them any direct given to a spaniard will be significantly more noticed than on non-spaniards. This is called confirmation bias.
Another fact that has been pointed out is that it actually takes extra effort to alter the "natural" sequence ... and most of you don't believe we are capable of it as masterly stated by Dan Dare.
Another fact that none of you seems to consider is that even if we were capable to give that little extra help to spanish carriers... WHY would we do it? You might not know that we have been branded criminals by 99% of spanish society of all political inclinations or income. Our reputation is on par with dregs of society, in fact, when making new aquitances and asked about my job I say something like "I work at the airport with a computer" or something like that. Not out of deception but because I know (firsthand experience) that if they knew my real job they would immediately biased against me without allowing the chance to know me.
So as you see I have absolutely no gratitude for this country and I save all my national pride for the national football team. Spain and all it's petty rabble who stoned my reputation without a second thought can rot in our current economic crisis for all that I care. Do ut des. Can anybody tell me why I should be favoring spanish carriers?
In any case I will concede one point explaining one situation where there is probably a bias towards favoring spanish-speaking carriers. Not all spanish atcos are really fluent in english. All manange ICAO lvl4 but are not at ease with heavy accent or complicated explanations. If such an atco needs to issue complicated insructions in order to use a space in the sequence, it is very likely that he'll do so in spanish, not out of a nationality preference but because if he tried to explain the same situation in english it would take much longer and then the chance would no longer be there.
The other main topic in this thread is about working hours. Initially they don't seem too much and it is also true that years ago some people worked way over that (and were very handsomely paid for it, all be told). Nevertheless there are now two main differences (and no, salary has also changed but is not really one of the key factors despite what some may think).
1) Before some who felt fit enough or worked in some easier sectors decided voluntarily to increase their working hours but some others didn't even if they would have been also richly paid. They stuck to 1200 hours or thereabouts... these people are now having the most trouble adjusting. And let's keep in mind that with current reduced rest time 1500 hours today are not the same as 1500 hours 4 years ago.
2) Previously you could plan ahead your life. Currently you get shift planning with one month in advance and it can be changed more or less at will by Aena. For example they can tell you on your way out of the job (or while in your position, handling live traffic) that you are required for duty tomorrow. I have the information (third hand, but I trust the source) about a guy making some shift changes with colleagues in order to have free a specific date (brother's wedding if I remember correctly), handing all the changes to HR... and then HR answering with a smile: OK, changes approved and now that you have day XXX available, here is a mandatory service for that day.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"? Might be, but we have here close seconds. Oh, and next time ask any spanish atco about how AENA understands maternity leave and worktime reduction to raise children... or did I mention that at my unit people were recalled and put to work while they were on holidays?
Back on topic, it's not only how much we have to work know but rather more the fact that we can't plan for anything. We are at the complete mercy (or rather lack of thereof) from Aena to be forced to work at their whim.
Hope this helps with the explaining.
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@Daermon ATC
I'm new to this topic - I can't find anything on a quick Google search to give me background on what you say. Do you have any reliable sources I can look up, please? I don't doubt your word, but I'm interested to see how ATC can be so regarded.
You might not know that we have been branded criminals by 99% of spanish society of all political inclinations or income.
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El PSOE acusa al PP de colocarse 'al lado de presuntos delincuentes' | España | elmundo.es
Fomento niega conversaciones con los controladores porque "no negocia con chantajistas" - 20minutos.es
Controladores aéreos a la cárcel
https://m.facebook.com/pages/Control...%2Fsearch&_rdr
El PSOE acusa al PP de "planificar" la huelga y el PP responde pidiendo la dimisión de Blanco | Intereconomía | 403480
And on and on and on..... it's all in Spanish, sorry.
Fomento niega conversaciones con los controladores porque "no negocia con chantajistas" - 20minutos.es
Controladores aéreos a la cárcel
https://m.facebook.com/pages/Control...%2Fsearch&_rdr
El PSOE acusa al PP de "planificar" la huelga y el PP responde pidiendo la dimisión de Blanco | Intereconomía | 403480
And on and on and on..... it's all in Spanish, sorry.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by Daermon
As has been pointed out before, perception of giving priority to spanish carriers can just arise due to the increased probability of finding spaniards. Since there is an underlying preconception that we do prioritize them any direct given to a spaniard will be significantly more noticed than on non-spaniards. This is called confirmation bias.
Regarding the quote - no - sorry to inform you that this is called fact. From 1988 up to 2008 I have many instances (mainly into MAD) where this has happened, and it was MAD where the senior manager was interviewed by Eurocontrol for the major breach of slot allocation to which I referred. I also experienced going from number 4 in the hold for R18 at MAD one evening to number 6 after 20 minutes holding while ?guess who? proceded ahead and landed. I have also experienced 'selective' arrivals and departures at BCN. You may not have seen it happen Daermon, but many of us have - and ONLY in Spanish controlled airspace
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Thank you so much Daermon for finally addressing the question at hand and for giving us some plausible reason as to why domestic carriers are benefitting. Controllers with poor English can be a liability (or at the very least a hindrance) in many countries, although it would appear that there is a higher concentration in Spain. Perhaps a minimum of Level 4 is not sufficient afterall, and maybe the required standard should be higher. In Spain, I'd imagine that this is not just a problem for AENA, but also for AESA, and ultimately SENASA who test and award the Level 4 certificates.. (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Obviously not every controller needs to be that improficient or incompetent, but it only takes a minority to give the rest of you a bad name. In any case, it seems that your system needs a radical overhaul... 1200 or even 1500 hours per year seems very low compared to the rest of us, albeit with 120/130% load factors. If you now do your 1670 or 1750 maximum annual quota as required, should the load factors not be reduced accordingly if there are (theoretically at least) more staff and sectors available to open..?
Obviously not every controller needs to be that improficient or incompetent, but it only takes a minority to give the rest of you a bad name. In any case, it seems that your system needs a radical overhaul... 1200 or even 1500 hours per year seems very low compared to the rest of us, albeit with 120/130% load factors. If you now do your 1670 or 1750 maximum annual quota as required, should the load factors not be reduced accordingly if there are (theoretically at least) more staff and sectors available to open..?
Last edited by Out The Gap; 11th Aug 2013 at 14:54.