Who should I talk to ?
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Who should I talk to ?
In a previous thread it was suggested that when flying around or across the Thames to the east of London it would be a good idea to talk to Thames Radar.
Some people have told me that they talk to Essex Radar and some that they talk to Southend.
I have not been able to find any information that suggests which is the best ground station to speak to for any given circumstance.
I know that all Radar stations have a certain area but how do I discover what coverage goes where ?
I know that going North of the Thames, I have heard Thames Radar say one is leaving their area around Brentwood.
At Stapleford I hear many people calling to say they are passing overhead at 2,300ft or 5 miles abeam and these stations appear to be switching from one airfield to the next along the route, (I have done this myself Stapleford, Elstree,Wycombe,White Waltham) but when should I switch to a Radar service ?
I know there is not a definative answer (apart from approaching a MATZ) but what is the best procedure to follow in order to attain the best standard of airmanship?
Some people have told me that they talk to Essex Radar and some that they talk to Southend.
I have not been able to find any information that suggests which is the best ground station to speak to for any given circumstance.
I know that all Radar stations have a certain area but how do I discover what coverage goes where ?
I know that going North of the Thames, I have heard Thames Radar say one is leaving their area around Brentwood.
At Stapleford I hear many people calling to say they are passing overhead at 2,300ft or 5 miles abeam and these stations appear to be switching from one airfield to the next along the route, (I have done this myself Stapleford, Elstree,Wycombe,White Waltham) but when should I switch to a Radar service ?
I know there is not a definative answer (apart from approaching a MATZ) but what is the best procedure to follow in order to attain the best standard of airmanship?
Join Date: Feb 2001
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There are of course no hard and fast rules, however the following might be of use to you.
Thames Radar (132.7) generally looks after the area to the east of London, approximately from a line north-south through Westminster Bridge. West of that is Heathrow Special (119.9).
If you are transiting the area around the Dartford Crossing then I suggest your first port of call should be Thames Radar. They will help you if they can. If you are further east, then Southend Approach (128.95) are helpful, but I think they only have primay radar at present.
Essex Radar (120.62) have a primary task of vectoring traffic for Luton and Stansted, and generally are not able to help you (depending on workload and controller affinity for light aircraft!) unless you are planning to transit or underfly their various bits of airspace.
Luton Radar (129.55) had a bad press not so long back of being very unhelpful to non-IFR or joining traffic, but this seems to have improved of late. However, they too have a primary duty to their IFR arrivals and departures and may only take an interest if you are wanting to cross the CTR.
Northolt Radar (126.45) are very helpful on that NW corner of the LL CTR, and are always worth a call as they vector IFR arrivals down to 3000' around Elstree and might like to know who you are.
Bear in mind that all these radar units are only able to give you the level of service they can manage due to their workload, and if everyone calls up for a RIS on a beautiful clear day or they are handling a lot of scheduled traffic then you will probably get told to be happy with a FIS or even go away. They are also unaware of the intentions of any traffic which is not talking to them. For this reason you need to consider the airfields you mention.
Biggin, Stapleford, Elstree & Panshanger all have ATZs (2000' AAL) which go almost to the base of CAS (2400 AMSL). Therefore if you are cruising at anything less than 2400' close to these airfields then a call will probably elicit better info than relying on a radar unit.
Hope this is some help.
Thames Radar (132.7) generally looks after the area to the east of London, approximately from a line north-south through Westminster Bridge. West of that is Heathrow Special (119.9).
If you are transiting the area around the Dartford Crossing then I suggest your first port of call should be Thames Radar. They will help you if they can. If you are further east, then Southend Approach (128.95) are helpful, but I think they only have primay radar at present.
Essex Radar (120.62) have a primary task of vectoring traffic for Luton and Stansted, and generally are not able to help you (depending on workload and controller affinity for light aircraft!) unless you are planning to transit or underfly their various bits of airspace.
Luton Radar (129.55) had a bad press not so long back of being very unhelpful to non-IFR or joining traffic, but this seems to have improved of late. However, they too have a primary duty to their IFR arrivals and departures and may only take an interest if you are wanting to cross the CTR.
Northolt Radar (126.45) are very helpful on that NW corner of the LL CTR, and are always worth a call as they vector IFR arrivals down to 3000' around Elstree and might like to know who you are.
Bear in mind that all these radar units are only able to give you the level of service they can manage due to their workload, and if everyone calls up for a RIS on a beautiful clear day or they are handling a lot of scheduled traffic then you will probably get told to be happy with a FIS or even go away. They are also unaware of the intentions of any traffic which is not talking to them. For this reason you need to consider the airfields you mention.
Biggin, Stapleford, Elstree & Panshanger all have ATZs (2000' AAL) which go almost to the base of CAS (2400 AMSL). Therefore if you are cruising at anything less than 2400' close to these airfields then a call will probably elicit better info than relying on a radar unit.
Hope this is some help.
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The Thames Radar area of responsibility for VFR flights is within the M25 and East of a line drawn North - South through Battersea heliport, but excluding a 10 nm radius of Biggin Hill. That having been said, there is always an overlap between the areas covered by different ATC Units. The furthest North East I personally would give a service is Chelmsford, and the furthest South East is Detling. Thames is not a LARS Unit so you will probably only get a FIS from us routinely, although RIS might be offered occasionally subject to workload. By all means give us a call when transiting between LAM and DET, but be sensible about it - if it is in the middle of the morning or evening rush, then just listen on the frequency.
My suggestions are:-
1. When transiting any ATZ call them 5 nm before for traffic information and clearance through, e.g. EGSG and EGTO.
2. Brentwood/Chelmsford area heading East or North East - Essex Radar.
3. Tilbury heading east - Southend.
4. LAM - DET and South of the Thames heading SSE - Rochester.
5. North of Rochester heading East towards Chatham - Manston.
6. South of DET heading South - Headcorn.
7. South East of DET heading South East - Lydd.
8. LAM - BPK - Luton, but only if you wish to transit their airspace as they are no longer a LARS Unit as you know.
9. Anywhere else London FIR 124.6.
Having said all this, if at any time you are in an emergency or unsure of your position, immediately contact any of the radar units in the general area. Thames or Essex are probably best as Southend has no SSR.
Just a few ideas. Hopefully others will contribute.
My suggestions are:-
1. When transiting any ATZ call them 5 nm before for traffic information and clearance through, e.g. EGSG and EGTO.
2. Brentwood/Chelmsford area heading East or North East - Essex Radar.
3. Tilbury heading east - Southend.
4. LAM - DET and South of the Thames heading SSE - Rochester.
5. North of Rochester heading East towards Chatham - Manston.
6. South of DET heading South - Headcorn.
7. South East of DET heading South East - Lydd.
8. LAM - BPK - Luton, but only if you wish to transit their airspace as they are no longer a LARS Unit as you know.
9. Anywhere else London FIR 124.6.
Having said all this, if at any time you are in an emergency or unsure of your position, immediately contact any of the radar units in the general area. Thames or Essex are probably best as Southend has no SSR.
Just a few ideas. Hopefully others will contribute.
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Well thanks guys.
That is really helpfull. Now all I need to do is read it all over again and try to get a picture in my head of who to listen to and who to speak to and when.
ATCO Two I appreciate what you said about the workload and I would be happy to listen in so long as I know it is the most relevant station.
eyeinthesky, Thanks for the overview of the different stations it would be really cool if a pilot could look up a brief summary of what each unit does and is interested in and how a low hours PPL can best help.
There are so many possible stations that any aircraft could be in communication with and I just want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
If I squawk 7000 mode C and somone can see my signal.
If I am not talking to them and neither is the other guy then they just see to dots converging at the same altitude and so even if I am listening but they do not know it then they would not assume I was listening and will not know my callsign to call me with.
Anyway thanks again for you help.
That is really helpfull. Now all I need to do is read it all over again and try to get a picture in my head of who to listen to and who to speak to and when.
ATCO Two I appreciate what you said about the workload and I would be happy to listen in so long as I know it is the most relevant station.
eyeinthesky, Thanks for the overview of the different stations it would be really cool if a pilot could look up a brief summary of what each unit does and is interested in and how a low hours PPL can best help.
There are so many possible stations that any aircraft could be in communication with and I just want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
If I squawk 7000 mode C and somone can see my signal.
If I am not talking to them and neither is the other guy then they just see to dots converging at the same altitude and so even if I am listening but they do not know it then they would not assume I was listening and will not know my callsign to call me with.
Anyway thanks again for you help.
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LRRP,
I gave you a list of the most appropriate Units in the Essex/Kent/Sussex area, so if you know where you are you should now know who you might contact/listen to.
I THINK I understand your last paragraph.... A7000 is a conspicuity code - it indicates to a controller that you are operating outside controlled airspace and not receiving a radar service. It also assists controllers in actually seeing you on radar, as primary radar cover at low levels can sometimes be less than optimal. I would always recommend you squawk altimeter (mode C). This will allow Thames Radar to warn IFR flights at or descending to 3000ft of your presence, and perhaps pre-empt TCAS episodes. Of course we can take no action if we see two A7000 squawks converging, BUT you are supposed to be operating under visual flight rules i.e., see and be seen. Even when receiving a radar service you should not be lulled into a false sense of security and relax your lookout. There are a myriad of reasons why a controller might not be able to call traffic to you.
I gave you a list of the most appropriate Units in the Essex/Kent/Sussex area, so if you know where you are you should now know who you might contact/listen to.
I THINK I understand your last paragraph.... A7000 is a conspicuity code - it indicates to a controller that you are operating outside controlled airspace and not receiving a radar service. It also assists controllers in actually seeing you on radar, as primary radar cover at low levels can sometimes be less than optimal. I would always recommend you squawk altimeter (mode C). This will allow Thames Radar to warn IFR flights at or descending to 3000ft of your presence, and perhaps pre-empt TCAS episodes. Of course we can take no action if we see two A7000 squawks converging, BUT you are supposed to be operating under visual flight rules i.e., see and be seen. Even when receiving a radar service you should not be lulled into a false sense of security and relax your lookout. There are a myriad of reasons why a controller might not be able to call traffic to you.
