Exiting Tango routes
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Exiting Tango routes
Hope someone will take the time to enlighten me. I used to fly Tango routes a few years ago and we never did a full position report at the VHF check in with a domestic frequency.
Flying with an airline that has not previously operated Tango routes and the trainers are advocating the full HF position report format at the domestic VHF exit point.
Any info greatly appreciated.
Flying with an airline that has not previously operated Tango routes and the trainers are advocating the full HF position report format at the domestic VHF exit point.
Any info greatly appreciated.
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It's not necessary. Not sure where the trainers are getting their guidance from but you should ask them.
In a nutshell on the T9 the position report is only made at the entry ie: LASNO or BEGAS. On reading back your report Shanwick will give you the domestic VHF frequency to contact when you near the exit or give a time to make contact. All the domestic radar controller wants is your callsign and FL and that you are approaching xx. They will then assign you a squawk and positively radar identify you.
T16 is similar but as you noted the Portuguese request that you contact them at a waypoint given by Santa Maria. On exiting the T16 Santa Maria only want you to tell them that you are in contact with Lisboa.
In a nutshell on the T9 the position report is only made at the entry ie: LASNO or BEGAS. On reading back your report Shanwick will give you the domestic VHF frequency to contact when you near the exit or give a time to make contact. All the domestic radar controller wants is your callsign and FL and that you are approaching xx. They will then assign you a squawk and positively radar identify you.
T16 is similar but as you noted the Portuguese request that you contact them at a waypoint given by Santa Maria. On exiting the T16 Santa Maria only want you to tell them that you are in contact with Lisboa.
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Not always so.
Last couple of times I've been southbound on T16 (last week), even though we were radar identified by Lisbon ACC & 2-way on VHF, Santa Maria still required an HF position report overhead NAVIX.
No great shakes but unusual.
Of greater concern, I've noticed a few aircraft reducing to their most efficient cruising mach number after exiting MNPS without asking ATC first. I was always taught that you asked ATC if you could resume normal cruising mach post MNPS instead of just blindly adjusting speed because of the chance of reducing separation with traffic still obligated to MNPS clearance.
One flight we were following at FL370 was on the same clearance as us which was FL370/M.80. He exited MNPS & came back to M.77. Canaries ACC noticed this & asked his current mach number. He responded "Mach .77" ATC then told the aircraft to request a change of speed next time
Last couple of times I've been southbound on T16 (last week), even though we were radar identified by Lisbon ACC & 2-way on VHF, Santa Maria still required an HF position report overhead NAVIX.
No great shakes but unusual.
Of greater concern, I've noticed a few aircraft reducing to their most efficient cruising mach number after exiting MNPS without asking ATC first. I was always taught that you asked ATC if you could resume normal cruising mach post MNPS instead of just blindly adjusting speed because of the chance of reducing separation with traffic still obligated to MNPS clearance.
One flight we were following at FL370 was on the same clearance as us which was FL370/M.80. He exited MNPS & came back to M.77. Canaries ACC noticed this & asked his current mach number. He responded "Mach .77" ATC then told the aircraft to request a change of speed next time
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DADDY-OH!
Just to clarify, the Oceanic Clearance applies to ALL flights within Oceanic airspace (e.g Shanwick OCA) operating at/above FL55. (Class A Airspace).
MNPS airspace (FL285 - FL420) only concerns the carriage of equipment certified to the required standard of navigational performance and redundancy, and also the separation minima applied by ATC to those aircraft certified to operate within MNPS airspace - it does not concern the Oceanic Clearance, which must be adhered to by all within Class A Airspace, irrespective of MNPS.
Last month a very late (<5 min from entry) request for Oceanic Clearance was received from a Tango route flight, who when asked why they had not complied with the <90/>30 minute (prior to entry fix ETA) 'request window', replied "we are below MNPS"... (FL280). Curious as to how MNPS is creeping in to some operator's minds with regard to the requirements for requesting/obtaining an Oceanic Clearance.
MNPS clearance
Just to clarify, the Oceanic Clearance applies to ALL flights within Oceanic airspace (e.g Shanwick OCA) operating at/above FL55. (Class A Airspace).
MNPS airspace (FL285 - FL420) only concerns the carriage of equipment certified to the required standard of navigational performance and redundancy, and also the separation minima applied by ATC to those aircraft certified to operate within MNPS airspace - it does not concern the Oceanic Clearance, which must be adhered to by all within Class A Airspace, irrespective of MNPS.
Last month a very late (<5 min from entry) request for Oceanic Clearance was received from a Tango route flight, who when asked why they had not complied with the <90/>30 minute (prior to entry fix ETA) 'request window', replied "we are below MNPS"... (FL280). Curious as to how MNPS is creeping in to some operator's minds with regard to the requirements for requesting/obtaining an Oceanic Clearance.
Last edited by rab-k; 4th Jul 2013 at 09:33.
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You must maintain your assigned Mach no. for the crossing when entering domestic airspace. That just shows ignorance. The procedures for MNPS airspace including contingencies are all spelt out in the ICAO manual
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To read back my understanding of the above .....
1 - On the domestic VHF frequencies neither Shanwick nor Lisbon require an HF format position report.
2 - These VHF domestic frequencies only require "Callsign FL and approaching xyz"
3 - Santa Maria HF do require a standard HF position report at the domestic point (in addition to the above).
Thanks
1 - On the domestic VHF frequencies neither Shanwick nor Lisbon require an HF format position report.
2 - These VHF domestic frequencies only require "Callsign FL and approaching xyz"
3 - Santa Maria HF do require a standard HF position report at the domestic point (in addition to the above).
Thanks
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1. When exiting Shanwick into domestic (radar control) airspace, e.g. Scottish, Shannon, Brest or Madrid FIRs, Shanwick do not require a position report over the boundary (exit) fix. If one is given, Shanwick Radio will immediately respond with the instruction to QSY to the appropriate domestic VHF.
2. The above named FIRs will require to identify you on radar and verify your level on first contact, therefore callsign and flight level is required, plus approaching/overhead/passing XXXXX (exit fix). The squawk **** with ident will follow, together with any route information.
3. Can't speak for LPPO.
Shanwick's VHFs are used for clearance delivery and HF allocation/SELCAL requests. Postion reports should be made on HF or via ADS-C/FMC, (Not CPDLC), or SATPHONE.
2. The above named FIRs will require to identify you on radar and verify your level on first contact, therefore callsign and flight level is required, plus approaching/overhead/passing XXXXX (exit fix). The squawk **** with ident will follow, together with any route information.
3. Can't speak for LPPO.
Shanwick's VHFs are used for clearance delivery and HF allocation/SELCAL requests. Postion reports should be made on HF or via ADS-C/FMC, (Not CPDLC), or SATPHONE.
