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Time to start rolling after the T/O clearance

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Time to start rolling after the T/O clearance

Old 25th Feb 2013, 09:10
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Time to start rolling after the T/O clearance

Hello ATC

Once you issue the take off clearance is there a time limit when the a/c should start rolling? Do you have a document or a regulation for such limit?

Thnx

L.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 09:30
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Nothing that I know of. Like any other clearance, it stands until amended or cancelled.

That said, there is some guidance - aimed at preventing runway incursions - that has some recommendations about not lining an aircraft up until it can go and not issuing a t/o clearance a long time before the aircraft gets to the runway. Like any other guidance, it needs to be read in context and these particular bits always seemed to be some of the poorest parts of the guidance doc.

Last edited by Spitoon; 25th Feb 2013 at 09:33.
 
Old 25th Feb 2013, 12:23
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When I line someone up and they accept the clearance i assume, sometimes incorrectly, that they are ready for departure. So when clearing someone for takeoff i expect that to start happening within the next ten seconds as it can have a serious effect on rwy separations.
If I wanted an a/c to roll after 30 seconds i'd probably have waited half a minute, please take note medium operators at Dxb.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 13:10
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Depending on the take-off clearance issued by ATC.

If you accept an immediate take-off clearance it means you must line up and take-off immediately without stopping (ICAO).

If issued by a normal take-off clearance it is really your call, provided the AIP doesn't state otherwise. Some, normally busier airports have added departure procedures to be followed when a take-off clearance is issued, which could state that you must start your take-off role within a certain time, e.g. 20 seconds, to reduce runway occupancy time.

If you are unsure then ask ATC before lining up.

Hope this helps.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 14:37
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Do you have a document or a regulation for such limit?
As stated, individual airport's instructions may have guidance, and if the word 'immediate' is used then that is what is expected (i.e. no stopping if you're moving toward the runway when issued).

From a personal perspective the answer is always immediately. I would never issue the clearance in the expectation that you will take any time to depart, therefore when the clearance is issued you can be rolling. Any time spent not doing so is time wasted on a capacity constrained runway. 99.9% of the time there is someone waiting for you to leave so they can too....
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 20:47
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Three ways to see this:
  • Cleared for takeoff; no pressing issues
  • Minimum delay, Cleared for takeoff; don't be a tourist
  • Cleared for immediate takeoff; I'm puckering, you better get moving.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 00:29
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When I was an atco at one of the uk's major international airport, the first departure of the day was given taxi clearance, take off clearance and when airborne contact "#####" which the aircraft did without stopping and no further contact. Gone are those days.
On a modern note, unless the pilot is given an "immediate" then in theory the pilot can take as long as required to complete take off checks. If it is a busy airport I will always be ready on reaching the holding point so if an "immediate is required I can accept or if required to hold on the threshold I can comply but as soon as the "cleared take off" instruction is issued we are rolling.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 02:46
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In Australia a take off clearance is valid for 2 minutes. If an a rolling take off cannot be achieved by the pilot I would expect to be notified.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 08:02
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Looking at it from a slightly different perspective, at a runway-constrained airport like Heathrow for example, the declared departure rate (i.e. take-offs achievable per hour) contains an implicit factor for what is termed, rather misleadingly, "pilot reaction time" between the take-off clearance being issued and the start of roll.

I don't know what value is used, but somebody probably will.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 10:31
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Apart from "putting the towel on the runway" why take a line up if you're not ready to go?
As others have said if you're not going to go straight away, just say before you line up then plan B can be used if necessary.

The most nervous place to be at a busy airport should be sitting still on a runway (especially at night) !
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 13:14
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"pilot reaction time"

not heard that one, if so it is only seconds, I would say if that is the case then it also takes into account engine spool up time.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 14:27
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"pilot reaction time"

not heard that one, if so it is only seconds, I would say if that is the case then it also takes into account engine spool up time.
Yes, that's why I said that the term was misleading.

Having said that, it's in fairly common use. Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.gva.ch/Portaldata/1/Resou...es/ACE-GVA.pdf

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...n1-1334810.pdf
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 14:48
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When flying an SEP, I've sometimes been cleared to enter & backtrack, then given a takeoff clearance whilst backtracking to the start of the runway. In this situation, do ATC want me to continue with the backtrack, or turn around & take off from my current position?

Generally, if happy with the runway length available, once I hear the magic words "cleared takeoff", I just turn round & go. Noone has so far shouted at me for it.
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Old 1st Mar 2013, 23:34
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IMO, "cleared for take off" means power up and roll (assumed lined up). Pilots who sit there twiddling their thumbs forget that over the period of an hour, if every aircraft wasted one second, it effectively removes one movement in that hour.

Another bugbear is the dreaded medium following a 757. Our procedures do not require departure wake turbulence separation, yet many (non Uk european-based airlines) will ask for two minutes AFTER being given take off clearance. Tell us beforehand, or at the very least when given a conditional line up after a B757. And where wake turbulence spacing is required, we apply it from wheels up to wheels up and make an educated anticipation of your airborne time when issuing take off clearance.

Rant over. thank you

Last edited by hold at SATAN; 1st Mar 2013 at 23:35.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 08:51
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And where wake turbulence spacing is required, we apply it from wheels up to wheels up
By "wheels up" do you mean weight off them, rather than gear retracted ?
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 09:33
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1 second, you are cleared for t/o. Take the damn acft off.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 09:35
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Originally Posted by hold at SATAN View Post
And where wake turbulence spacing is required, we apply it from wheels up to wheels up and make an educated anticipation of your airborne time when issuing take off clearance.
Couldn't agree more, that's the way we do it as well.

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
By "wheels up" do you mean weight off them, rather than gear retracted ?
Where I work, it's from rotation to rotation, so basically weight off the wheels, yes.

By the way, minor rant : if, for whatever reason (weather etc.) you need an engine run-up before you go, please do let us know in advance and most of all, let us know before you taxi past the holding point

If the spacing with the next arrival becomes potentially tight, we will ask anyway before we issue a lineup clearance, but it certainly doesn't hurt to keep us informed beforehand

Last edited by mebur_verce; 2nd Mar 2013 at 09:38.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 09:39
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SATAN means weight off. At Heathrow this was known internally as 'wheels off' because 'wheels up' has a completely different meaning. Some departures leave wheels down for longer for cooling!

Asking for extra separation after line-up at a place like Heathrow is thoughtless and unprofessional, it causes disruption to the flow and interrupts the maximising of runway utilisation. At Heathrow departure times are predicted some time ahead and generally achieved until such thoughtless requests throw a spanner in the works. Crews requiring non-standard separation should inform GMP when starting, not once on a highly sought-after piece of concrete.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 09:41
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Hi Satan,

Just out of curiosity, what do you take into account for the takeoff time??

I was told about the wheels up->wheels up of 2 min by a colleague who was in the tower a few days before. Since then, I have started the stopwatch as the heavy gets airborne.

I ask because - Other day I was flying to PIK (No prizes for guessing how light I was). Take off clearance issued 1min7secs after heavy airborne.... I waited around a few seconds more for the <30sec takeoff roll....

When flying to LED in a 321 I would expect the clearance about that time, but PIK?
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 21:17
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Cough: before anyone can give you a sensible answer, the exact a/c types involved would be helpful, as well as whether you were departing from the same point as the previous departure or not.
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