NAS: From 9020 to HCS. A brief History
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
NAS: From 9020 to HCS. A brief History
Errr.. Well, I don't know, but would like to. Anybody out there able to give us all a brief history of the venerable beast?
A few specific questions:
When did the IBM 9020D become operational at LATCC?
Was it really a development example (i.e. second hand)?
What was it's estimated operational life?
When did the Host Computer System (HCS) take over from 9020? (I should KNOW, but can't remember exactly)
What is HCS's estimated operational life?
Were we really told that after HCS there would be no more shutdowns or failures (or did I dream this bit)?
If anyone remembers far enough back to provide a "potted" history I'd be very interested.
rgds BEX
A few specific questions:
When did the IBM 9020D become operational at LATCC?
Was it really a development example (i.e. second hand)?
What was it's estimated operational life?
When did the Host Computer System (HCS) take over from 9020? (I should KNOW, but can't remember exactly)
What is HCS's estimated operational life?
Were we really told that after HCS there would be no more shutdowns or failures (or did I dream this bit)?
If anyone remembers far enough back to provide a "potted" history I'd be very interested.
rgds BEX
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From: EGTT
Bex
Couple of snippets to be going on with from the marvellous publication " Horizon " celebrating? 25 years of the CAA. Presented with my jam jar/rosebowl for 25 year sentence completed
9020D operational in 1975.
HCS on time and on budget during the reign of Tugendhat ( remember him?? no ) 1986-91.
1988 - million flights thro Latcc
1989 - CCF full scale testing.
1990 - £750m ATC investment for growth programme - HCS possibly incorporated in that.
You could become our official historian.
Couple of snippets to be going on with from the marvellous publication " Horizon " celebrating? 25 years of the CAA. Presented with my jam jar/rosebowl for 25 year sentence completed
9020D operational in 1975.
HCS on time and on budget during the reign of Tugendhat ( remember him?? no ) 1986-91.
1988 - million flights thro Latcc
1989 - CCF full scale testing.
1990 - £750m ATC investment for growth programme - HCS possibly incorporated in that.
You could become our official historian.
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From: France
I do remember the 9020 arriving care of PA 160 (a nightly freighter for them wot ain' as old as wot I is) and Tels unpacking a lot of it in the LATCC car park. A lot of the inner packing consisted of strips of very good walnut which found its way into many homes to reappear as shelves, so some good did come of it.
Tugendhat was one of the new boys!!!
Tugendhat was one of the new boys!!!
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From: UK
Hi,
I was employed as an ATCA at LATCC when the IBM 9020D was introduced as a replacement for 'Hermes'. The date must have been late 1974 or very early 1975 as I left to go to Gatwick in April 1975.
9020 was the same animal as one used in the USA, although I believe our American comrades were in the process of throwing theirs away.
Every night it was shut down at around 2300 and things reverted to manual throughout the quiet period. Restart was planned for around 0600 but rarely made it on time as it frequently had the sulks. This was mainly due to the entire night being taken up with 'systems testing', including what sounded like destructive testing. Around 0200 the whole Op's room would be woken by the sound of every terminal and printer running flat out for about 30 minutes. If nothing broke then it was declared fit for the next day. Things nearly always did break! IBM declared that it was rather like driving your car down a motorway at 60 mph then slamming it into reverse to see what would happen!!
After a couple of years I think it was considered wiser to leave it switched on 24/7 and not tempt fate.
Regards
Slightly Mad
I was employed as an ATCA at LATCC when the IBM 9020D was introduced as a replacement for 'Hermes'. The date must have been late 1974 or very early 1975 as I left to go to Gatwick in April 1975.
9020 was the same animal as one used in the USA, although I believe our American comrades were in the process of throwing theirs away.
Every night it was shut down at around 2300 and things reverted to manual throughout the quiet period. Restart was planned for around 0600 but rarely made it on time as it frequently had the sulks. This was mainly due to the entire night being taken up with 'systems testing', including what sounded like destructive testing. Around 0200 the whole Op's room would be woken by the sound of every terminal and printer running flat out for about 30 minutes. If nothing broke then it was declared fit for the next day. Things nearly always did break! IBM declared that it was rather like driving your car down a motorway at 60 mph then slamming it into reverse to see what would happen!!
After a couple of years I think it was considered wiser to leave it switched on 24/7 and not tempt fate.
Regards
Slightly Mad
Beady Eye
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From: UK
If you go 'OnAir' there is a huge blurb recently hyperlinked all about NAS. Tells about how it was originally hosted, then transferred onto the 9020D, now onto new hardware, but still using the 9020D software!
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Thanks to all above. I'm particulary interested in the "stories" not listed officially, like the ones The Mad Controller & shack (ex 42 sqd?) posted. Thanks.
Take3 etc.. thanks for that. I shall have a quick look next time I'm in.
Rgds Bex
Take3 etc.. thanks for that. I shall have a quick look next time I'm in.
Rgds Bex
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From: England
BEXIL160 could tell you lots about the early days of 9020 and the FDOR Room - we actually took estimates (no OLDI links in those days) and revisions in another room!!!!! and then activated the plans from there!!! Imagine trying to do a co-ordinated climb when you were'nt even on the sector!!!
Could tell loads if you want, was there from 1972 on - aaaaargh!!
Mail me at [email protected] if you want more incredible gen!
(sorry far too many !!!'s)
Could tell loads if you want, was there from 1972 on - aaaaargh!!
Mail me at [email protected] if you want more incredible gen!
(sorry far too many !!!'s)
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From: England
The FDOR (Flight Data Operations Room) was manned by 2 or 3 assistants, if my memory serves me well, each with a telephone to take ALL the estimates inbound to LATCC. Each phone had a dedicated set of destinations eg Maastrict, Amsterdam, Copenhagen etc and links to the corresponding sectors eg Clacton , North Sea. It doesn't take much to realise what it was like around midday with all the outbound EHAM traffic all reqesting co-ordinated climb etc. It was a shambles and lasted only a few months, when the lines were then re-directed to the sectors and we had the system that lasted until NERC, ie estimates received on the sectors themselves.
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From: France
Going back a bit before 9020 was really working there was a thingee that I seem to remember called Hermes which produced strips for us in the Tower at LHR. I assume that it must have been a fallout from the original Linesman/Mediator, I know it was LATCC based, more I cannot remember.
No Bex not 42, but 120, Wing QFI St.Mawgan,CC Cat board, 37 then finally QFI at Kinloss. Either email me or ask HD if you cannot work it out.
No Bex not 42, but 120, Wing QFI St.Mawgan,CC Cat board, 37 then finally QFI at Kinloss. Either email me or ask HD if you cannot work it out.
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Thanks Sector8 and BIG-KOK. Very interesting stuff.
Thanks also to shack. Think I've got you "pegged" now. Admissions time.... In my formative years I was inspired by people such as yourself... then I fell in with a bunch of ex-signallers.. the rest is history.
rgds BEX
Thanks also to shack. Think I've got you "pegged" now. Admissions time.... In my formative years I was inspired by people such as yourself... then I fell in with a bunch of ex-signallers.. the rest is history.
rgds BEX
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From: Near Stalyvegas
S8dear,
I was at PATCRU then , but went to EGCC tower as a runway controller, [remember them ?] rather than to Manchester SubCentre. AFAIK, the SS upened on time, but with ALL the operational staff just walking in and doing the job
, but they probably had [some] training
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I was at PATCRU then
, but went to EGCC tower as a runway controller, [remember them ?] rather than to Manchester SubCentre. AFAIK, the SS upened on time, but with ALL the operational staff just walking in and doing the job , but they probably had [some] training we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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From: England
Yes Biggin I think you are right. The best bit was the co-ordinated climbs. First you took the request from EHAM (for example) you then rang the sector (e.g. Clacton) and repeated the climb request - meanwhile EHAM could hear all of this and understandably became confused - then having got approval from Clacton you repeated this again to the EHAM person who by then had pretty much lost it! You then handed the strip to an STPO who input the time, level etc to activate the plan - no wing update panels in those days - decision was that wings would never need to make an input!!!!!!!
We don't really learn do we ....still make duff decisions by people who don't understand the operational processes and needs!
Oh well, it was a fun time anyway.
We don't really learn do we
....still make duff decisions by people who don't understand the operational processes and needs!Oh well, it was a fun time anyway.
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From: England
S8D
Do you remember when talking to EHAM it always seemed to DG, pronounced Delta Golluf, who was talking to us. I wonder if he is still around? Does he read Pprune? We used to use 'Non de plumes' even then a la Pprune. I always gave my initials as XZ, until there was a problem one day and the supervisor came round looking for Xray Zulu!!!!
Good times.
Do you remember when talking to EHAM it always seemed to DG, pronounced Delta Golluf, who was talking to us. I wonder if he is still around? Does he read Pprune? We used to use 'Non de plumes' even then a la Pprune. I always gave my initials as XZ, until there was a problem one day and the supervisor came round looking for Xray Zulu!!!!
Good times.
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From: England
Yea Biggin, I remember 'Delta Golluf', wasn't there also a Delta Sierra who pronounced it something like Dilta Shearer or something.
They were good times I guess. Do you remember the 'electrowriter' on N Sea? Now that was technology!
They were good times I guess. Do you remember the 'electrowriter' on N Sea? Now that was technology!
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From: USA
9020D (as opposed to 9020E used over here as I/O processor (sort of)) sold in UK was an IBM private sale to NATS. As was HOST, the "off the shelf" "interim" replacement for the 9020 pending Advanced Automation System.
Running a replacement to the Host hardware/OS (sort of) now and looking for a further replacement under ERAM (Enroute Automation Modernization).
Several things jump out:
1. Yanks think up neat names for stuff
2. Brits are smarter because they let us develop the stupid things and then come in and say "one more here please" and just pay the recurring cost.
3. NAS is old
Can you guys develop a replacement for NAS and then the FAA just buy it for the recurring cost? Please?
Running a replacement to the Host hardware/OS (sort of) now and looking for a further replacement under ERAM (Enroute Automation Modernization).
Several things jump out:
1. Yanks think up neat names for stuff
2. Brits are smarter because they let us develop the stupid things and then come in and say "one more here please" and just pay the recurring cost.
3. NAS is old
Can you guys develop a replacement for NAS and then the FAA just buy it for the recurring cost? Please?
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
err.... We (well, at least I ) was hoping that we would be able to buy into ERAM when you had it up and running fully.
Also with the current controversy over the NERC displays perhaps a UK order for DSR might be in order. Any chance of a discount based on past purchases? No, aww shucks..
BEX
(P.S. also on my "wish list" is NEXRAD. Dear Santa......)
Also with the current controversy over the NERC displays perhaps a UK order for DSR might be in order. Any chance of a discount based on past purchases? No, aww shucks..
BEX
(P.S. also on my "wish list" is NEXRAD. Dear Santa......)
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From: England
S8D
The elecrowriter, ahh yes, wonderful technology. It was originally introduced at PATCC (Preston Centre) and used to send information on Sector 25 flights to the outlying radar units, Preston itself having no radar. The units involved, as far as I can remember being Ulster, Northern, Lindholme and Eastern. The device was a machine the size of a mousmat and about 4 inches deep to take the rolls of paper. there was a pen device with which we wrote the details on the paper, which were, transmitted to the other units, in real time. Aparrently if the receiving machines wern't set up right, theey often received just a scrawl of writing. This great invention cut down the number of phone calls we used to have to make to advise the radar units of the flights. If the flight wasn't affecting a particular unit they would then just ignore the message. This mcahine was used at LATCC on North Sea when Preston closed, and was used there until Eastern Radar was transferred to North Sea.
The elecrowriter, ahh yes, wonderful technology. It was originally introduced at PATCC (Preston Centre) and used to send information on Sector 25 flights to the outlying radar units, Preston itself having no radar. The units involved, as far as I can remember being Ulster, Northern, Lindholme and Eastern. The device was a machine the size of a mousmat and about 4 inches deep to take the rolls of paper. there was a pen device with which we wrote the details on the paper, which were, transmitted to the other units, in real time. Aparrently if the receiving machines wern't set up right, theey often received just a scrawl of writing. This great invention cut down the number of phone calls we used to have to make to advise the radar units of the flights. If the flight wasn't affecting a particular unit they would then just ignore the message. This mcahine was used at LATCC on North Sea when Preston closed, and was used there until Eastern Radar was transferred to North Sea.
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Actually we kept the 9020's through the 80's for flight plan processing and through the 90's for radar processing. All the units finally replaced with the HOST computers and then the third iteration of the HOST was called HOCSR and came about for Y2K as well as sustainment issues. The newer DCCR radar display computer was replaced by DSR a couple of years ago. All of this however still running on that wonderful legacy software called NAS.
I was in DC all this week getting briefed on ERAM and hopefully we will finally begin going forward on that procurement. But as some may have read, one of the contractors already has filed a protest and I hope that it is over quickly. This appears to have as much of a possibility of being a change no more less than when we went from conventional separation to radar by the time the entire program is finished...
regards
I was in DC all this week getting briefed on ERAM and hopefully we will finally begin going forward on that procurement. But as some may have read, one of the contractors already has filed a protest and I hope that it is over quickly. This appears to have as much of a possibility of being a change no more less than when we went from conventional separation to radar by the time the entire program is finished...
regards
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From: USA
Appears FAA will take it's usual bold, decisive stand on contracting decision and award contracts to both competitors to develop and demonstrate their wares on ERAM.
FAA has it's own contracting system and under it it is NOT possible to bring a multi billion $ job to a halt for the cost of a letter and postage. But it also calls for some intestinal fortitude in the agency. And maybe it doesn't really matter.
So you want a NEXRAD, son? Well step right up! Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....
NEXRAD, owned by the NWS in CONUS and other people outside CONUS, is the development by a now merged merged company (Sperry) for a committee of government agencies (50% National Wx Service, 25% FAA, 25% Defense) managed by the NWS, the same folks who bring you the daily/hourly weather guess. The transmitter is from an ASR-9, don't know what systems the other parts came from. Held together with a big bowl of spagetti software, possibly programmed in ADA, but likely has lots of other languages and stuff in it using algorithms thought out be people in Boulder CO, so when you have dry air, high temp outflows from convective activity on mountains (real 10,000 ft +mountains, not little hills), tornados and hurricanes it works fine if you can keep it running.
If I were you, I'd get an ASR-9 weather channel. Thats by Westinghouse, no Northrop, no Northrop-Grumman, no ...oh forget it, cant keep track of the stud book for these people.
FAA has it's own contracting system and under it it is NOT possible to bring a multi billion $ job to a halt for the cost of a letter and postage. But it also calls for some intestinal fortitude in the agency. And maybe it doesn't really matter.
So you want a NEXRAD, son? Well step right up! Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....
NEXRAD, owned by the NWS in CONUS and other people outside CONUS, is the development by a now merged merged company (Sperry) for a committee of government agencies (50% National Wx Service, 25% FAA, 25% Defense) managed by the NWS, the same folks who bring you the daily/hourly weather guess. The transmitter is from an ASR-9, don't know what systems the other parts came from. Held together with a big bowl of spagetti software, possibly programmed in ADA, but likely has lots of other languages and stuff in it using algorithms thought out be people in Boulder CO, so when you have dry air, high temp outflows from convective activity on mountains (real 10,000 ft +mountains, not little hills), tornados and hurricanes it works fine if you can keep it running.
If I were you, I'd get an ASR-9 weather channel. Thats by Westinghouse, no Northrop, no Northrop-Grumman, no ...oh forget it, cant keep track of the stud book for these people.
Last edited by Iron City; 22nd April 2002 at 13:57.
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Hmmmmm, we don't seem to have any trouble with our WSR-88D's out here. They seem to always be up and painting weather for us (that is NEXRAD radar). We've just put the software on the HOCSR so that we can do some testing on NAS in the DYSIM as well as training for NEXRAD. We should have NEXRAD available through the WARP terminal on the DSR glass by next month. It will be a darn sight better than the weather presentation that we get now off the ARSR-2's and 3's out there. Of course, in the future I would like to see something even better..
regards
regards