Light AC "Hold on base leg " with airliner landing.
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Light AC "Hold on base leg " with airliner landing.
Hi,
I had cause to fly into an 'airport' on the south coast the other week. SW runway , NW wind. Pa28 holding on base, orbiting L, passes by 200' above and probably the same horizontally.'TRAFFIC' TA. No RA - can't of course instruct us to descend at that point.
My issue being can't they be told to hold somewhere else - downwind ? geographical point ? With that wind it would have only taken slightly worse judgement for the Pa28 to have been as one with us.... I didn't think it was safe TBH.
I had cause to fly into an 'airport' on the south coast the other week. SW runway , NW wind. Pa28 holding on base, orbiting L, passes by 200' above and probably the same horizontally.'TRAFFIC' TA. No RA - can't of course instruct us to descend at that point.
My issue being can't they be told to hold somewhere else - downwind ? geographical point ? With that wind it would have only taken slightly worse judgement for the Pa28 to have been as one with us.... I didn't think it was safe TBH.
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Was he visual with you? Did ATC tell you that he was there, holding off? Did they tell you that he was visual with you? Did you get visual with him? You don't give enough detail of the scenario.
Why not hold downwind? Maybe there was another ac on the downwind leg.
Why not hold at a geographical point? He was already in the circuit. I might have held him off if he was joining, but I would be unlikely to kick him out if he was already in.
Did you ask to speak to the controller or the ATC supervisor after you landed? You might have been reassured that all was well.
Why not hold downwind? Maybe there was another ac on the downwind leg.
Why not hold at a geographical point? He was already in the circuit. I might have held him off if he was joining, but I would be unlikely to kick him out if he was already in.
Did you ask to speak to the controller or the ATC supervisor after you landed? You might have been reassured that all was well.
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Orgasmic, If there was anywhere near the quoted 200' vertical and horizontal separation all was not well. Something went badly wrong here and I suspect it is another example of an inexperienced GA pilot not doing what he was told. I've had to go around twice in the last two years both were caused by inexperienced PPLs.
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This often happens at Bournemouth, except we're normally given 'orbit left/right at the end of downwind', with the orbit on the 'outside' of the circuit. The traffic on final is always told the location(s) of the orbiting aircraft. I was also taught to keep the orbit fairly tight, and allow for wind so as not be blown towards the field.
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RMC, I am quite sure that there will be other examples of losses of separation in similar circumstances, but my point was that the OP did not give us much to go on. The glaring gap was whether or not he spoke to ATC afterwards to find out what was going on. The view from the tower will have been very different from that of the two cockpits involved and the controller may have been unaware of the result of a safe plan by ATC allegedly being poorly executed by the PA28.
Avoid imitations
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If it was a problem, and it appears that there were safety concerns, an AIRPROX report would be a more appropriate channel. Mandatory, perhaps.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 1st Oct 2012 at 12:07.
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Hi,
we were both warned about each other.We were visual, so was he. As he passed 200' above and to one side, he must have good judgement as 2/3 of a mile back we would have been at his height of course...
I was tempted to airprox it, but my colleagues considered the separation was enough - I was still uncomfortable.
we were both warned about each other.We were visual, so was he. As he passed 200' above and to one side, he must have good judgement as 2/3 of a mile back we would have been at his height of course...
I was tempted to airprox it, but my colleagues considered the separation was enough - I was still uncomfortable.
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By all means file an AIRPROX if your concerns warrant it however, the UKAB (UK Airprox Board) are unlikely to go much further when you say:
Edit: I am surprised the orbit was given as late as base leg* (I've had 5 hold downwind in extreme circumstances) and ever since the Southend Accident a few years ago, at my unit we are not allowed to hold light aircraft in the circuit other than downwind or by using tactics such as extending the circuit and planning ahead as far as possible or going around which have been assessed as being generally much safer.
* We don't know the entire scenario so maybe the only option available to the ATCO.
we were both warned about each other.We were visual, so was he. As he passed 200' above and to one side, he must have good judgement as 2/3 of a mile back we would have been at his height of course...
* We don't know the entire scenario so maybe the only option available to the ATCO.
Last edited by Andy Mayes; 1st Oct 2012 at 16:44.
Orgasmic, If there was anywhere near the quoted 200' vertical and horizontal separation all was not well. Something went badly wrong here ...
RMC, I am quite sure that there will be other examples of losses of separation in similar circumstances, but my point was that the OP did not give us much to go on.
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can you imagine how the brits will have to change things once regular manned commercial spaceflight is accomplished?
ORBIT, indeed.
why not just say CIRCLE
?
we also use the term...extend downwind follow JET on final, caution wake turbulence
the pilot can even say: wilco, but call my base turn
ORBIT, indeed.
why not just say CIRCLE
?
we also use the term...extend downwind follow JET on final, caution wake turbulence
the pilot can even say: wilco, but call my base turn
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why not just say CIRCLE
G-CD, for spacing orbit right number
2, number 1 is a Cherokee on final,
report again on base
2, number 1 is a Cherokee on final,
report again on base
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Furthermore, "circle" is where one sits in the theatre, old boy! 
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Originally Posted by sevenstrokeroll
we also use the term...extend downwind follow JET on final, caution wake turbulence
And by the way, the UK uses the term orbit because ICAO uses the term orbit.
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At Ronaldsway I was once instructed to break off a short final and hold on base leg because there was 'a faster aircraft behind'. After an eternity a Tucano appeared on a PD. The Rules of the Air must be different over the IOM...would have been much easier to permit me to land vacate, park, get out and finish my tea...Ho, hum, it takes all sorts...
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7stroke - we don't have the segmented circle. We do, however, have a Signals Square and or a landing 'T' which performs the same function. I have heard 'orbit' in your part of the world too.
The place to settle the Orbit/Circle and similar debates is ICAO SARPS by the way !
The place to settle the Orbit/Circle and similar debates is ICAO SARPS by the way !