Question for London S8/35
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Question for London S8/35
Hi all,
I have come on here to find the answers to some questions controllers in Shannon High Level have for London controllers. I am doing it on pprune in order to cut out the middle (project) man, official line,ect ect. I am not looking for procedures to be established or rules laid down, just some opinions from London controllers!!
The big question today is about EGLL arrivals between 0400z and 0800z. Procedure says the traffic is restricted to fl 330 by Slany/Bakur/Evrin, with the use of FL310 and FL290 as required.
Recently after some sort of consultation with London about spacing between EGLL arrivals, a staff notice was issued stating that staff should endevour to provide "daylight" between the aircraft. This is brilliantly vague and is no help whatsoever.
At the moment, there are a few trains of thought on the matter:
1. Try our best to get 10+ miles between all EGLL and LTMA traffic, mostly using mach numbers.
2. Try to get some space between the arrivals, mostly less than 10 miles, but opening up with matching mach numbers.
3. Sod it, they are going to the hold anyway, just pile them in at different levels
4. Call london and ask for some aircraft to be sent to S9 on the Gibso or Merly track
I understand it is impractical and unfair to heavily restrict traffic west of 12W, which can make it difficult to get 10+ miles by STU, especially when faster (747, 777) are behind the slower aircraft (757,767,A30 ect).
If the London controllers could tell us what THEIR exit conditions are for LTMA arrivals on the east side of S8/S35 are then it might help us understand the best way to present the traffic. There is little point in working hard to provide 15nm in trail if London only need 10nm on handover to the next sector!
Some of the Shannon controllers are reluctant to ask what way London controllers would like the traffic presented to them, for reasons unknown to me...
Any suggestions?
I have come on here to find the answers to some questions controllers in Shannon High Level have for London controllers. I am doing it on pprune in order to cut out the middle (project) man, official line,ect ect. I am not looking for procedures to be established or rules laid down, just some opinions from London controllers!!
The big question today is about EGLL arrivals between 0400z and 0800z. Procedure says the traffic is restricted to fl 330 by Slany/Bakur/Evrin, with the use of FL310 and FL290 as required.
Recently after some sort of consultation with London about spacing between EGLL arrivals, a staff notice was issued stating that staff should endevour to provide "daylight" between the aircraft. This is brilliantly vague and is no help whatsoever.
At the moment, there are a few trains of thought on the matter:
1. Try our best to get 10+ miles between all EGLL and LTMA traffic, mostly using mach numbers.
2. Try to get some space between the arrivals, mostly less than 10 miles, but opening up with matching mach numbers.
3. Sod it, they are going to the hold anyway, just pile them in at different levels
4. Call london and ask for some aircraft to be sent to S9 on the Gibso or Merly track
I understand it is impractical and unfair to heavily restrict traffic west of 12W, which can make it difficult to get 10+ miles by STU, especially when faster (747, 777) are behind the slower aircraft (757,767,A30 ect).
If the London controllers could tell us what THEIR exit conditions are for LTMA arrivals on the east side of S8/S35 are then it might help us understand the best way to present the traffic. There is little point in working hard to provide 15nm in trail if London only need 10nm on handover to the next sector!
Some of the Shannon controllers are reluctant to ask what way London controllers would like the traffic presented to them, for reasons unknown to me...
Any suggestions?
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shannon,
Whilst I am only a humble pilot, your third option on the list made me laugh out loud! I will forever have this image of the boys in Shannon Control just shrugging, yelling expletives at the radar and then just handing off en-masse for London to sort out
Whilst I am only a humble pilot, your third option on the list made me laugh out loud! I will forever have this image of the boys in Shannon Control just shrugging, yelling expletives at the radar and then just handing off en-masse for London to sort out
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Hi MrHorgy,
Thanks for the reply!
I'm glad it made you laugh, it was there for comic effect.
The "sod it" option was exaggerated, but some people do feel like they are wasting time and fuel by restricting aircraft that may be split into a vertical hold nearer EGLL.
Thanks for the reply!
I'm glad it made you laugh, it was there for comic effect.
The "sod it" option was exaggerated, but some people do feel like they are wasting time and fuel by restricting aircraft that may be split into a vertical hold nearer EGLL.
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Exit conditions on the otherside of S8 which is about 25 before NUMPO is still FL330 although they all need to be FL140 by BEDEK which is about 40 before Ockham which is the holding fix for Heathrow.
Ideally before they leave S8, they need to be in one line and streamed nicely as the next sector have to try and integrate them with traffic outbound from Bristol and Cardiff and on headings against inbounds to said airfields and LTMA outbounds in a bit of airspace that's less than 20m wide with a lot of danger areas to the south.
If we put them into the next sector two abreast it can really cause them a shedload of problems as they can rapidly run out of space. Going in above FL140 isn't usually an option as there's southbound traffic at FL150 just after we hand them over so they need to be level.
The above doesn't apply during the first eastbound rush as there's nothing out of the LTMA, it's only later on in the day. Also, it's the same controller working them all the way to BEDEK until around 06.15 local, when the sectors get split.
Our major bugbear is when we get three of them at FL330, 310 and 290 with no effort made to put any speed on them. That used to happen a lot, but thankfully it's a very rare occurrence these days. The other one is when the EVRIN controller gets everything in a nice line which looks lovely and the guy doing BAKUR just lets the stuff run in, we appreciate your sector split is there, but if you could have a look at what the other sectors have got it would make our life easier. That said, when we have stuff going westbound from S8/35 and S9 we don't always look so it's swings and roundabouts.
Giving the traffic to S9 is an option especially if it's coming off the ocean to the South and needs to track up towards EVRIN, and more so if it's going to get caught up with a load coming through BAKUR. At the times in question certainly up until 0600 local S9, 8 and 35 are being worked by the same people, so it wouldn't be saving the S8/35 controller any R/T, but would certainly reduce the workload. Only thing to consider is it's a few more track miles and they will still end at the same holding point eventually.
Hope that helps a little bit, love the thing about daylight between them. How does that work at night
Ideally before they leave S8, they need to be in one line and streamed nicely as the next sector have to try and integrate them with traffic outbound from Bristol and Cardiff and on headings against inbounds to said airfields and LTMA outbounds in a bit of airspace that's less than 20m wide with a lot of danger areas to the south.
If we put them into the next sector two abreast it can really cause them a shedload of problems as they can rapidly run out of space. Going in above FL140 isn't usually an option as there's southbound traffic at FL150 just after we hand them over so they need to be level.
The above doesn't apply during the first eastbound rush as there's nothing out of the LTMA, it's only later on in the day. Also, it's the same controller working them all the way to BEDEK until around 06.15 local, when the sectors get split.
Our major bugbear is when we get three of them at FL330, 310 and 290 with no effort made to put any speed on them. That used to happen a lot, but thankfully it's a very rare occurrence these days. The other one is when the EVRIN controller gets everything in a nice line which looks lovely and the guy doing BAKUR just lets the stuff run in, we appreciate your sector split is there, but if you could have a look at what the other sectors have got it would make our life easier. That said, when we have stuff going westbound from S8/35 and S9 we don't always look so it's swings and roundabouts.
Giving the traffic to S9 is an option especially if it's coming off the ocean to the South and needs to track up towards EVRIN, and more so if it's going to get caught up with a load coming through BAKUR. At the times in question certainly up until 0600 local S9, 8 and 35 are being worked by the same people, so it wouldn't be saving the S8/35 controller any R/T, but would certainly reduce the workload. Only thing to consider is it's a few more track miles and they will still end at the same holding point eventually.
Hope that helps a little bit, love the thing about daylight between them. How does that work at night
Last edited by The Many Tentacles; 16th Sep 2012 at 17:29. Reason: speling :)
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as a fellow sufferer from management missives that aren't proofread from an ops point of view, i understand resorting to other means for clarification. however, i prefer to use a direct line on the compad to the relevant sector for insight - when traffic permits - rather than the interweb (but maybe your instructor would be unimpressed???)
