Cost of Fuel Burnt
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: malaysia
Cost of Fuel Burnt
Hi Aviators..do airlines have a record of the amount
of fuel burnt due to ATC reasons such as holding etc.
Do you fill in a voyage report which the company
takes into account of the fuel burnt due to delays
by atc? Would like to know if such a statistic exists.
Thanks in advance.
of fuel burnt due to ATC reasons such as holding etc.
Do you fill in a voyage report which the company
takes into account of the fuel burnt due to delays
by atc? Would like to know if such a statistic exists.
Thanks in advance.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,562
Likes: 33
From: I wouldn't know.
In my outfit we do have a statistic about how much delay due to ATC we have. It is in minutes per year. Since we know how fuel we burn per average minute it is quite easy to get extra fuel burned due to ATC delay. Additionally we fill in ACARS reports whenever we do not get the filed flight level, get a very early descent clearance and so on. So fuel burned due to ATC is something quite often used in political debates for example about a faster implementation of a true single european sky. The current status quo costs a lot of money, for no good reason at all.
Last edited by Denti; 14th September 2012 at 07:06.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,718
Likes: 2,084
From: Reading, UK
I think you will find most "ATC delays" are caused by airlines scheduling multiple flights to arrive and depart at the same time.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 99
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From: Southampton
Quite bl@@dy so!
How often have us ATCOs sat on a plane and heard the current delay is 'due to Air Traffic Control'?!?
Is it that there are too may chuffing aircraft arriving at this particular time who all want to land on the same piece of black-top, or that 26 aircraft are ready to depart at the same time from a similar piece. These are not ATC delays, these are Air Traffic Delays! So please think twice before you blame those whose job (as Kiwi Girl suggests) is to keep you all safely separated.
Similarly if the poor bod in front blocks the runway or bad weather increases the gaps on final approach - to maintain a safe operation. Again, not ATC delays.
There ARE some ATC delays, when sickness causes below normal staffing for example, but the broad brush blame game is not reasonable. On at least half a dozen occasions I have challenged the reason for our delay, for it to be clarified as non-ATC related. To be fair on several of these occasions the pilots have PA'd with a more accurate reason!
Safe flying...
How often have us ATCOs sat on a plane and heard the current delay is 'due to Air Traffic Control'?!?
Is it that there are too may chuffing aircraft arriving at this particular time who all want to land on the same piece of black-top, or that 26 aircraft are ready to depart at the same time from a similar piece. These are not ATC delays, these are Air Traffic Delays! So please think twice before you blame those whose job (as Kiwi Girl suggests) is to keep you all safely separated.
Similarly if the poor bod in front blocks the runway or bad weather increases the gaps on final approach - to maintain a safe operation. Again, not ATC delays.
There ARE some ATC delays, when sickness causes below normal staffing for example, but the broad brush blame game is not reasonable. On at least half a dozen occasions I have challenged the reason for our delay, for it to be clarified as non-ATC related. To be fair on several of these occasions the pilots have PA'd with a more accurate reason!
Safe flying...
Last edited by Cartman's Twin; 14th September 2012 at 12:55.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 203
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From: F370
At our company we assign time delays to various causes, including ATC. That could be waiting for clearance before start. The fuel burn is just the cost of doing business, and the company doesn't assign blame.
Joe
Joe
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 575
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From: In t'sky
Cartman's Twin,
Nothing would give me better pleasure than to state clearly on the PA "Apologies for the delay, this is due to the scheduling of an inadequate amount of time to achieve a safe turnaround", however we might lose our jobs
I normally blame the weather, even if it's CAVOK.
Nothing would give me better pleasure than to state clearly on the PA "Apologies for the delay, this is due to the scheduling of an inadequate amount of time to achieve a safe turnaround", however we might lose our jobs
I normally blame the weather, even if it's CAVOK.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 573
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From: England
Some years back, a pilot in a passenger carrying 737 received a Radar Advisory Service (at his own request) from me at a unit using raw radar AR1 equipment.
After a couple of "Avoiding action, turn right heading 120, traffic was 12 O'clock, range 5 miles, height unknown" type transmissions to cater for unknown "pop-ups", he asked me if I had any idea what this was costing his company in fuel.
When I replied that I didn't, I also asked him to confirm what service he was requesting. He confirmed RAS, so I continued with more of the same. In return, he complained again and eventually requested a Radar Information Service. Some days, a controller can't win.
After a couple of "Avoiding action, turn right heading 120, traffic was 12 O'clock, range 5 miles, height unknown" type transmissions to cater for unknown "pop-ups", he asked me if I had any idea what this was costing his company in fuel.
When I replied that I didn't, I also asked him to confirm what service he was requesting. He confirmed RAS, so I continued with more of the same. In return, he complained again and eventually requested a Radar Information Service. Some days, a controller can't win.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 575
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From: In t'sky
Cartman,
Legend has it, one particular Captain here picks up the PA upon arrival and rather than the traditional "Welcome to XXX Cabin Crew disarm doors" simply states..
"Ladies and Gentlemen, O'Leary has your money now f*** off!"
Legend has it, one particular Captain here picks up the PA upon arrival and rather than the traditional "Welcome to XXX Cabin Crew disarm doors" simply states..
"Ladies and Gentlemen, O'Leary has your money now f*** off!"
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: Northwich
IATA delay codes starting with 8 come under the heading of ATC (even though some are clearly nothing to do with ATC). It is often not clear why a delay is caused and there is much inaccurate reporting as a result. Having been exposed to the Spanish work to rule for some time now it just highlights how flexible and accommodating our Northern Europe ATC units are. So Rossoneri "Thank you" from all of us.
81: ATC restriction en-route or capacity
82: ATC restriction due to staff shortage or equipment failure en-route
83: ATC restriction at destination
84: ATC restriction due to weather at destination
85: Mandatory security
86: Immigration, Customs, Health
87: Airport Facilities, parking stands, ramp congestion, buildings, gate limitations, ...
88: Restrictions at airport of destination, airport/runway closed due obstruction, industrial action, staff shortage, political unrest, noise abatement, night curfew, special flights, ...
89: Restrictions at airport of departure, airport/runway closed due obstruction, industrial action, staff shortage, political unrest, noise abatement, night curfew, special flights, start-up and pushback, ...
81: ATC restriction en-route or capacity
82: ATC restriction due to staff shortage or equipment failure en-route
83: ATC restriction at destination
84: ATC restriction due to weather at destination
85: Mandatory security
86: Immigration, Customs, Health
87: Airport Facilities, parking stands, ramp congestion, buildings, gate limitations, ...
88: Restrictions at airport of destination, airport/runway closed due obstruction, industrial action, staff shortage, political unrest, noise abatement, night curfew, special flights, ...
89: Restrictions at airport of departure, airport/runway closed due obstruction, industrial action, staff shortage, political unrest, noise abatement, night curfew, special flights, start-up and pushback, ...
Last edited by alosaurus; 26th September 2012 at 06:22. Reason: IATA codes added
