UK controller pronunciation
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
UK controller pronunciation
First of all, let me say that I rate the UK controllers as one of the very best in Europe, if not the best. It really is a pleasure to work with some of you guys in London for example, who maintain a calm gentlemanly voice (or the female equivalent) in the most busy airspace I know.
However, may I comment on one little issue? For a non-native English level 6 speaker one pronunciation is very difficult to understand, namely the way you say 2 and 3.
Why? Some UK controllers pronounce 2 as 'tueuei' and 3 as, well...'tueueuei' in stead of 'too' and 'tree' as per CAP413. At least, that's how it sounds to my non-native ear. So 'climb level FL230' sounds like: 'climb level tueuei tueueuei zeeeereu'. With as a result that two pilots are looking at each other asking 'was that 220 or 230?
Again, this is not a rant, it's just an issue which I deal with frequently in London airspace and which I thought I might bring to your attention
(and I know us pilots are much much much worse communicators)
However, may I comment on one little issue? For a non-native English level 6 speaker one pronunciation is very difficult to understand, namely the way you say 2 and 3.
Why? Some UK controllers pronounce 2 as 'tueuei' and 3 as, well...'tueueuei' in stead of 'too' and 'tree' as per CAP413. At least, that's how it sounds to my non-native ear. So 'climb level FL230' sounds like: 'climb level tueuei tueueuei zeeeereu'. With as a result that two pilots are looking at each other asking 'was that 220 or 230?
Again, this is not a rant, it's just an issue which I deal with frequently in London airspace and which I thought I might bring to your attention
(and I know us pilots are much much much worse communicators)
Last edited by PENKO; 4th September 2012 at 10:14.
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From: UK
Penko, I think it's just laziness and you hear it all the time from both pilots and controllers.
wun
too
tree
foah
fife
niner
All of which get routinely pronounced in the "everyday" way for the speaker, which is fine if the listener is another native speaker from the same part of the world/country, but not otherwise.
The other numbers seem relatively immune thankfully, it's just those 6.
G
wun
too
tree
foah
fife
niner
All of which get routinely pronounced in the "everyday" way for the speaker, which is fine if the listener is another native speaker from the same part of the world/country, but not otherwise.
The other numbers seem relatively immune thankfully, it's just those 6.
G
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Correct pronunciation of phonetics or numerics by any states' controllers is a given. Isn't it?
But what about level 4 english by crew operating in english speaking airspace?
I speak French appallingly and German even worse so who am I to criticise? But ICAO stipulates English as the language for r/t so it's incumbent on native speakers to annunciate proper like or else what chance do our continental chums stand?
Charlie, charlie. SGC
But what about level 4 english by crew operating in english speaking airspace?
I speak French appallingly and German even worse so who am I to criticise? But ICAO stipulates English as the language for r/t so it's incumbent on native speakers to annunciate proper like or else what chance do our continental chums stand?
Charlie, charlie. SGC
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From: South of England
Decimal should be pronounced DAYSEEMAL See CAP 413 for further details,
2 s
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From: UK
Could I suggest that the phonetic spelling is just an attempt to indicate the correct English pronunciation, mainly for the benefit of non-native English speakers? After all, if you have English as a first language, you do not need ICAO or CAP413 to tell you to pronounce two as too!
2 s
2 s
It shows just how incorrect your views are I'm afraid.
I'm a native speaker living in England, there are native speakers in Texas, in Jamaica, in Glasgow, in the Rhondda, in Australia....
Add in that fife and niner are there to stop confusion with other words, and for good reason.
... we really do need standardised pronounciation. More to the point, we need to use it.
G
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From: USA
2 sheds.
May I quote from CAP413?
Document Purpose
1.1.1 The aim of the United Kingdom Radiotelephony Manual (CAP 413) is to provide pilots Air Traffic Services personnel and other ground personnel, both civil and military, with a compendium of clear, concise, standardised phraseology and associated guidance,for radiotelephony (RTF) communication in United Kingdom airspace.
1.2 Document Applicability
1.2.1 All users of RTF in the United Kingdom are expected to comply with the phraseology described in this manual.
Not just for the benefit of non native speakers. More a LANGUAGE for all users of the airspace.
May I quote from CAP413?
Document Purpose
1.1.1 The aim of the United Kingdom Radiotelephony Manual (CAP 413) is to provide pilots Air Traffic Services personnel and other ground personnel, both civil and military, with a compendium of clear, concise, standardised phraseology and associated guidance,for radiotelephony (RTF) communication in United Kingdom airspace.
1.2 Document Applicability
1.2.1 All users of RTF in the United Kingdom are expected to comply with the phraseology described in this manual.
Not just for the benefit of non native speakers. More a LANGUAGE for all users of the airspace.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
...I deleted my text because Gengis has already made to point about fifes and niners! And don't forget the horrible FOWER. Which native came up with that?
Last edited by PENKO; 7th September 2012 at 14:40.
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The problem with whoever wrote CAP413 and other phraseology manuals is that the phonetic pronunciation is not phonetic.
I don't know what accent they were trying to phoneticise, but WUN, could be meant to rhyme with either (an RP accent) "sun" or the vowel sound could be "oo" as in book, depending whether the author was from north or south of Watford Gap. Similarly, FOWER might rhyme with "hour" or "forward" (without the final d), which I reckon is closer to what was intended.
NB I have had to make a few assumptions about how everyone out there pronounces the words I have used as examples.
As a lot of our international brethren have to learn English, it would not be too hard for all of us to learn a few proper linguistic Phonetic alphabet symbols and have all words which have prescribed pronunciation properly phoneticised.
I don't know what accent they were trying to phoneticise, but WUN, could be meant to rhyme with either (an RP accent) "sun" or the vowel sound could be "oo" as in book, depending whether the author was from north or south of Watford Gap. Similarly, FOWER might rhyme with "hour" or "forward" (without the final d), which I reckon is closer to what was intended.
NB I have had to make a few assumptions about how everyone out there pronounces the words I have used as examples.
As a lot of our international brethren have to learn English, it would not be too hard for all of us to learn a few proper linguistic Phonetic alphabet symbols and have all words which have prescribed pronunciation properly phoneticised.
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In Australia they use "number pairing" in callsigns, so XXX1330 is "XXX Thirteen Thirty" and YYY3013 is "YYY Thirty Thirteen". I've seen a jet on t/o roll slam on the brakes and stop because of that exact reversal of c/s numbers. The other a/c had been instructed to hold position & the jet thought it was for them, despite having been warned of the similar callsign.
ap
ap
