Madrid LEMD Ground ctrl
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Madrid LEMD Ground ctrl
Hi every one,
I've heard that AENA's controllers are not providing gnd ctrl at LEMD anymore...
Who's doing it? Is it a private company or no control at all?
I've heard that AENA's controllers are not providing gnd ctrl at LEMD anymore...
Who's doing it? Is it a private company or no control at all?
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It's true, they're not. It's the implementation from a trial carried out on Terminal 4.
It's now carried out by an Apron Management Service that 'control' anything T1, 2 and 3 side of holding points A10-2 and M10-2. It was ridiculously slow at first but it looks like they're starting to get the hang of it a little bit.
Not too sure what qualifications the new Apron controllers have, but approaching the new transfer points ATC make a point of telling you that your "Control service is terminated"
It's now carried out by an Apron Management Service that 'control' anything T1, 2 and 3 side of holding points A10-2 and M10-2. It was ridiculously slow at first but it looks like they're starting to get the hang of it a little bit.
Not too sure what qualifications the new Apron controllers have, but approaching the new transfer points ATC make a point of telling you that your "Control service is terminated"
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The new service you are talking about is called SDP, which stands for "Servicio de Dirección de Plataforma" ("Apron Direction Service").
The guys that work at it are not ATCO´s, but hired by INECO (Spanish State Engineering company) after a 96 hr. theoric + 62 hr. training course.
They are not suposed to issue control instructions, only information. It is the pilot who is responsible of own separation with other ACFT´s/vehicles. This is why my ATCO´s colleagues at Barajas airport transfer all ACFT´s to them with the "control service terminated" at the end.
They are cheaper workers than ATCO´s, what I don´t know is if the companies get to pay less for their service than what they paid before ...
Keep your eyes open ...
The guys that work at it are not ATCO´s, but hired by INECO (Spanish State Engineering company) after a 96 hr. theoric + 62 hr. training course.
They are not suposed to issue control instructions, only information. It is the pilot who is responsible of own separation with other ACFT´s/vehicles. This is why my ATCO´s colleagues at Barajas airport transfer all ACFT´s to them with the "control service terminated" at the end.
They are cheaper workers than ATCO´s, what I don´t know is if the companies get to pay less for their service than what they paid before ...
Keep your eyes open ...
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How does this shame work? I mean, is there any kind of coordination or what between the ATC unit and those "plataforma" guys, how do they "handle" the traffic without screwing arrival/departure sequences, expecially in case of CTOT, bad weather and such as.
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@blissbak
Quick answer: "Who cares?"
On July 29th, 2010, AENA and the Spanish Goverment replaced ATC service at La Gomera Airport (GCGM) with AFIS service; on September 23rd, 2010, the same happened at El Hierro Airport (GCHI). This was the beginning of a great master plan aimed to replace ATC service with AFIS service at several Spanish airports, next to follow were Burgos, Logroño, Huesca ...
INECO (I mentioned this company before) was awarded the contract to provide the AFIS service with no public tendering process. Later it was known that INECO started secretly training their personnel in December 2009 at SENASA , the school at Madrid where until then all Spanish ATCO´s where trained for 20 months at least. The AFIS guys received a 7 week course, and nobody knows how they were selected for the job ...
Nobody cared about this, except for the Spanish ATCO´s ...
After only 1 month, AFIS service was replaced again by ATC service at El Hierro, but not the former ATCO´s: they simply added a few more days of training to the AFISO´s and VOILÁ! they became ATCO´s ...
The reason for this withdrawal mostly because of the complaints made by the local people and their public institutions, although some say that it was because of the rise in safety incidents involving the AFIS ...
Spreading of AFIS service in other airports was suspended, and it is yet unknown the amount of €€ waisted in this project ...
...and who cares ...?
SDP is another occurrence of this mismanagement, and until now, a lucky one: last winter was quite mild at LEMD, with almost no foggy days, snow or heavy rain. So lets hope future winters come as mild as the last one.
Anyway, who cares ...?
Sorry I can not give any more info regarding how SDP ant ATC coordinate at Barajas, I´ll try to ask about it.
Hasta luego!
How does this shame work? I mean, is there any kind of coordination or what between the ATC unit and those "plataforma" guys, how do they "handle" the traffic without screwing arrival/departure sequences, expecially in case of CTOT, bad weather and such as.
Quick answer: "Who cares?"
On July 29th, 2010, AENA and the Spanish Goverment replaced ATC service at La Gomera Airport (GCGM) with AFIS service; on September 23rd, 2010, the same happened at El Hierro Airport (GCHI). This was the beginning of a great master plan aimed to replace ATC service with AFIS service at several Spanish airports, next to follow were Burgos, Logroño, Huesca ...
INECO (I mentioned this company before) was awarded the contract to provide the AFIS service with no public tendering process. Later it was known that INECO started secretly training their personnel in December 2009 at SENASA , the school at Madrid where until then all Spanish ATCO´s where trained for 20 months at least. The AFIS guys received a 7 week course, and nobody knows how they were selected for the job ...
Nobody cared about this, except for the Spanish ATCO´s ...
After only 1 month, AFIS service was replaced again by ATC service at El Hierro, but not the former ATCO´s: they simply added a few more days of training to the AFISO´s and VOILÁ! they became ATCO´s ...
The reason for this withdrawal mostly because of the complaints made by the local people and their public institutions, although some say that it was because of the rise in safety incidents involving the AFIS ...
Spreading of AFIS service in other airports was suspended, and it is yet unknown the amount of €€ waisted in this project ...
...and who cares ...?
SDP is another occurrence of this mismanagement, and until now, a lucky one: last winter was quite mild at LEMD, with almost no foggy days, snow or heavy rain. So lets hope future winters come as mild as the last one.
Anyway, who cares ...?
Sorry I can not give any more info regarding how SDP ant ATC coordinate at Barajas, I´ll try to ask about it.
Hasta luego!
Last edited by Lssar; 6th Aug 2012 at 16:53.
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So let's just think about this for a moment.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong or shameful about an Apron Management Service. It's a service recognised by ICAO and has been for some 30 years. It's implemented at many major aerodromes throughout the world. If the service is provided within the bounds of the declared apron, everything is legitimate. Whether it is an appropriate service or the most efficient way to manage traffic at MAD is a matter of opinion.
I'm stunned, how can this be allowed to happen?! But hang on a second, isn't that the case everywhere? And I don't mean the "The pilot is always ultimately responsible for the aircraft" stuff, according to the rules (Annex 11) ATC - if that is the alternative - doesn't provide any control or separation service on an apron either.
There are no internationally required qualifications or training for those providing Apron Management Services and so the arrangements at MAD are probably legitimate also. Whether just five or six weeks of training is adequate to prepare someone to provide services on the apron of major aerodrome is debatable, particularly if something untoward happens; however, a lot will depend on the previous experience of those undertaking the training and subsequently doing the job.
So far, so good - or, at least, legitimate and legal. But there are lots of other rules, some specifically applicable in Europe, nowadays. The ANSP that previously provided some sort of service on the apron must, presumably, have conducted a safety assessment of the change to their systems by introducing the Apron Management Service. Even if the ANSP were to claim that they did not make the change or introduce the new service, the rules still require safety assessment to be carried out. There are also rules related to the competence of staff providing air navigation services – and I think the apron management service technically falls within this definition.
There are one or two other rules which spring to mind originating from all of the Single European Sky regulations that we now have to comply with in Europe but I won't try and tease out individual requirements which may, or may not, apply to this particular situation. However, all of these rules also require the National Supervisory Authority to supervise the correct application of the rules and to audit safety related changes to air navigation services.
I've mentioned all of this before, but I am known for being boring, so I'll do it again.....
I have heard lots of complaints about the way the Spanish air traffic controllers are being treated, I've seen the videos put on YouTube ostensibly by these controllers and I can only describe what I see as totally unprofessional but apparently very real. I don't know the rights and wrongs of the Spanish situation but if a fraction of what has been reported in the media is true, some controllers were extracting the urine over working hours and overtime in a way which could never continue, and now as is so often the case, everybody suffers because of it.
But I haven't heard anything about the NSA and what it is doing to ensure that the appropriate rules are being followed, and in particular, ensuring that the services are safe. It's not that I love rules and want lots more of them – in fact, the current set of SES rules with which we are blessed seem to me to do little other than create work – but if I have to do a whole pile of work because of these rules, I would feel mighty upset if, in some other country, all the rules were ignored.
Rant over.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong or shameful about an Apron Management Service. It's a service recognised by ICAO and has been for some 30 years. It's implemented at many major aerodromes throughout the world. If the service is provided within the bounds of the declared apron, everything is legitimate. Whether it is an appropriate service or the most efficient way to manage traffic at MAD is a matter of opinion.
Originally Posted by Lssar
They are not suposed to issue control instructions, only information. It is the pilot who is responsible of own separation with other ACFT´s/vehicles.
There are no internationally required qualifications or training for those providing Apron Management Services and so the arrangements at MAD are probably legitimate also. Whether just five or six weeks of training is adequate to prepare someone to provide services on the apron of major aerodrome is debatable, particularly if something untoward happens; however, a lot will depend on the previous experience of those undertaking the training and subsequently doing the job.
So far, so good - or, at least, legitimate and legal. But there are lots of other rules, some specifically applicable in Europe, nowadays. The ANSP that previously provided some sort of service on the apron must, presumably, have conducted a safety assessment of the change to their systems by introducing the Apron Management Service. Even if the ANSP were to claim that they did not make the change or introduce the new service, the rules still require safety assessment to be carried out. There are also rules related to the competence of staff providing air navigation services – and I think the apron management service technically falls within this definition.
There are one or two other rules which spring to mind originating from all of the Single European Sky regulations that we now have to comply with in Europe but I won't try and tease out individual requirements which may, or may not, apply to this particular situation. However, all of these rules also require the National Supervisory Authority to supervise the correct application of the rules and to audit safety related changes to air navigation services.
I've mentioned all of this before, but I am known for being boring, so I'll do it again.....
I have heard lots of complaints about the way the Spanish air traffic controllers are being treated, I've seen the videos put on YouTube ostensibly by these controllers and I can only describe what I see as totally unprofessional but apparently very real. I don't know the rights and wrongs of the Spanish situation but if a fraction of what has been reported in the media is true, some controllers were extracting the urine over working hours and overtime in a way which could never continue, and now as is so often the case, everybody suffers because of it.
But I haven't heard anything about the NSA and what it is doing to ensure that the appropriate rules are being followed, and in particular, ensuring that the services are safe. It's not that I love rules and want lots more of them – in fact, the current set of SES rules with which we are blessed seem to me to do little other than create work – but if I have to do a whole pile of work because of these rules, I would feel mighty upset if, in some other country, all the rules were ignored.
Rant over.
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As far as I'm aware, on an apron ATC provides information to assist pilots to avoid those 'ole collisions. Technically, in ICAO terms, there is no concept of an ATS on aprons.
The UK way of doing ATC right up to the stand is a bit unusual.
The UK way of doing ATC right up to the stand is a bit unusual.
Last edited by Spitoon; 6th Aug 2012 at 19:20.
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Originally Posted by eastern wiseguy
Isn't that what UK ATCO's do .....rather than "full ATC control"?
Originally Posted by terrain safe
Think people are getting apron and manoeuvring area confused.
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History teaches, despite of who handles who, the TWR is and always has been blamed for everything.
The thread starter is talking about no more ground control, and I guess normally no call is required to state "ehy you, going further open your eyes", dealing with a standard apron management.
I suppose it's one of the weird AENA inventions but I hope to be wrong and it's just a mere apron service, looking forward for more details.
The thread starter is talking about no more ground control, and I guess normally no call is required to state "ehy you, going further open your eyes", dealing with a standard apron management.
I suppose it's one of the weird AENA inventions but I hope to be wrong and it's just a mere apron service, looking forward for more details.
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Collision between two A330´s at LEMD
Desalojan a los pasajeros de dos aviones tras colisionar en el aeropuerto de Barajas | Madrid | elmundo.es
One from Air Europa, the other one from Iberworld; thank God, no injuries ...
One from Air Europa, the other one from Iberworld; thank God, no injuries ...
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DFS takes over apron management service at Düsseldorf Airport
Now it will be DFS TWR controllers who guide all aircraft: "all manoeuvring activities of aircraft at Düsseldorf Airport will fall within the responsibility of DFS".
"Flughafen Düsseldorf GmbH and DFS decided to take this step in order to reduce the coordination load and further improve punctuality".
Düsseldorf Airport: 20 million passengers (2011);
Madrid (Barajas) Airport: 35 million passengers (2011).
At Madrid Airport, SDP is still in place, and the foggy season is about to arrive.
Keep your eyes open!
"Flughafen Düsseldorf GmbH and DFS decided to take this step in order to reduce the coordination load and further improve punctuality".
Düsseldorf Airport: 20 million passengers (2011);
Madrid (Barajas) Airport: 35 million passengers (2011).
At Madrid Airport, SDP is still in place, and the foggy season is about to arrive.
Keep your eyes open!
