Visual departures
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Here,there and everywhere
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Visual departures
What's your stand on the above or better how you deal with such occurences when the pilot of an IFR flight (especially commercial A/C) requests visual departure .
Working under ICAO rules(where the State doesn't have any specific or additional local procedures layed out for it) and as sometimes such aircraft would enter uncontrolled airspace or at least cross a portion of it during their climb out, I as a radar controller am very reluctant(or better I strictly refuse contrary to some of the folks at my unit) to issue such clearances(subsequently such aircraft would as well be for the certain part of its initial climb bellow radar minima and bellow MSA). Oddly enough - I haven't found any instances of the above mentioned procedure in any of the ICAO documents .
Would love to hear any input or your views on it.
1999
Working under ICAO rules(where the State doesn't have any specific or additional local procedures layed out for it) and as sometimes such aircraft would enter uncontrolled airspace or at least cross a portion of it during their climb out, I as a radar controller am very reluctant(or better I strictly refuse contrary to some of the folks at my unit) to issue such clearances(subsequently such aircraft would as well be for the certain part of its initial climb bellow radar minima and bellow MSA). Oddly enough - I haven't found any instances of the above mentioned procedure in any of the ICAO documents .
Would love to hear any input or your views on it.
1999
Last edited by 1999; 19th Feb 2012 at 05:18.
It sometimes gets used here (Class D) by departing aircraft such as Citation, Metro, B200 etc because the SID does not provide separation from the nearby ILS to the Class C airport 10nm away. If its visual, thereby own sep from terrain and other a/c, and IFR traffic info is provided (as per non radar here) I can't see much of problem with it.
More commonly it's for IFR training flights - but for the same reason.
More commonly it's for IFR training flights - but for the same reason.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Here,there and everywhere
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HeathrowDirector - Exactly the same question I asked all those supporters of such "doings" at my unit :
such flights are "normal" IFR flights with filled flightplans etc ... and when the weather is nice they want to shorten their departures (but they would get the shortcuts from the radar as soon above the minimum levels anyway) ... so sometimes they ask tower they would like to depart "visually" ... and of course ..they are not willing to cancel their IFR Flight ... sooooooo .. in my book thats a clear NO GO!
(as I said earlier - there are no published local procedures for such a thing as a "Visual departure" or whatever ... and as a second issue I have with it - sometimes, depending on the exit points of their planned route following "such visual departure" they would for a certain period of time fly bellow MSA and radar minimas and even enter uncontrolled airspace .... so on my watch ..thats not happening.
Visual approaches are defined and detailed in various ICAO documents
- but there's not a word about "Visual departure" ...so at my unit I'm considered as a sort of an "idiot who's not flexible enough" .
My argument is pretty short ... since such procedures are not defined, and I as an ATC am in such cases unable to fully provide my primary role : prevent collisions between aircraft ...etc .. I'm not allowing it. PERIOD.
Thanx for your input guys
such flights are "normal" IFR flights with filled flightplans etc ... and when the weather is nice they want to shorten their departures (but they would get the shortcuts from the radar as soon above the minimum levels anyway) ... so sometimes they ask tower they would like to depart "visually" ... and of course ..they are not willing to cancel their IFR Flight ... sooooooo .. in my book thats a clear NO GO!
(as I said earlier - there are no published local procedures for such a thing as a "Visual departure" or whatever ... and as a second issue I have with it - sometimes, depending on the exit points of their planned route following "such visual departure" they would for a certain period of time fly bellow MSA and radar minimas and even enter uncontrolled airspace .... so on my watch ..thats not happening.
Visual approaches are defined and detailed in various ICAO documents
- but there's not a word about "Visual departure" ...so at my unit I'm considered as a sort of an "idiot who's not flexible enough" .
My argument is pretty short ... since such procedures are not defined, and I as an ATC am in such cases unable to fully provide my primary role : prevent collisions between aircraft ...etc .. I'm not allowing it. PERIOD.
Thanx for your input guys
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the rain
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking from a pilots point of view I have done this quite often in gin clear weather at (usually secondary) airports where the SIDS have a rather extended routing for terrain separation. I understand SIDS are created with a rather shallow climb gradient and must avoid terrain by a fixed margin. My aircraft can outperform this by a factor of 10, I can see the mountain and therefore avoid hitting it, so the procedural separation isn't required.
at the other end of the flight we sometimes do the same thing on descent - vmc avoid terrain visually - and usually finish off with a visual approach, all while being on an IFR flight plan. I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head if there are any ATC procedures published that relate to this in the countries where we do it.
I also heard from a friend working at a procedural airport that some pilots do it to reduce separation on diverging departures, but I guess it's no different to reporting #1 in sight and following visually, something else I try and do whenever allowed. In other places I fly the tower can separate visually allowing reduced departure separation or early turns.
at the other end of the flight we sometimes do the same thing on descent - vmc avoid terrain visually - and usually finish off with a visual approach, all while being on an IFR flight plan. I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head if there are any ATC procedures published that relate to this in the countries where we do it.
I also heard from a friend working at a procedural airport that some pilots do it to reduce separation on diverging departures, but I guess it's no different to reporting #1 in sight and following visually, something else I try and do whenever allowed. In other places I fly the tower can separate visually allowing reduced departure separation or early turns.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Coast and Suffolk
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like somthing similar to VMC Climb and Descent to me.
MATS Part 1 Sec 1 Chap 3 Page 3
MATS Part 1 Sec 1 Chap 3 Page 3
VMC Climb and Descent
To avoid excessive delays to traffic when ATS surveillance systems are not available, controllers may authorise an aircraft to climb or descend in VMC provided:
- a) essential traffic information is given;
- b) the pilot of the aircraft climbing or descending agrees to maintain his own separation from other aircraft and the manoeuvre is agreed by the pilot of the other aircraft;
- c) it is during the hours of daylight;
- d) the aircraft is flying in visual meteorological conditions;
- e) the manoeuvre is restricted to Class D, E, F and G airspace at or below FL100; and
- f) the aircraft is not in CAS-T.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
6.5.4 Visual departures
6.5.4.1 procedure (e.g. standard instrument departure (SID)) is not completed and the departure is executed in visual reference to terrain.
A visual departure is a departure by an IFR flight when either part or all of an instrument departure
6.5.4.2 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual departure upon request of the pilot or if initiated by the controller and accepted by the pilot.
6.5.4.3 To execute a visual departure, the aircraft take-off performance characteristics shall allow them to make an early turn after take-off. When implemented, visual departure shall be applied under the following conditions:
a) the meteorological conditions in the direction of take-off and the following climb-out shall not impair the procedure up to an altitude to be established and published by the appropriate authority, e.g. minimum flight altitude (MFA) or minimum sector altitude (MSA)
b) the procedure shall be applied during the daytime. The procedure may be considered for application at night following a separate aeronautical study by the appropriate air traffic services (ATS) authority;
c) the pilot shall be responsible for maintaining obstacle clearance until the specified altitude. Further clearance (route, heading, point) shall be specified by ATC; and
d) separation shall be provided between an aircraft cleared to execute a visual departure and other departing and arriving aircraft.
Prior to take-off, the pilot shall agree to execute a visual departure by providing a read-back of the ATC
6.5.4.5 and operators.
6.5.4.1 procedure (e.g. standard instrument departure (SID)) is not completed and the departure is executed in visual reference to terrain.
A visual departure is a departure by an IFR flight when either part or all of an instrument departure
6.5.4.2 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual departure upon request of the pilot or if initiated by the controller and accepted by the pilot.
6.5.4.3 To execute a visual departure, the aircraft take-off performance characteristics shall allow them to make an early turn after take-off. When implemented, visual departure shall be applied under the following conditions:
a) the meteorological conditions in the direction of take-off and the following climb-out shall not impair the procedure up to an altitude to be established and published by the appropriate authority, e.g. minimum flight altitude (MFA) or minimum sector altitude (MSA)
b) the procedure shall be applied during the daytime. The procedure may be considered for application at night following a separate aeronautical study by the appropriate air traffic services (ATS) authority;
c) the pilot shall be responsible for maintaining obstacle clearance until the specified altitude. Further clearance (route, heading, point) shall be specified by ATC; and
d) separation shall be provided between an aircraft cleared to execute a visual departure and other departing and arriving aircraft.
Prior to take-off, the pilot shall agree to execute a visual departure by providing a read-back of the ATC
6.5.4.5 and operators.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dunno if they still do it but it was normal operation in MUC to give visual departures to turboprops on departures to the south (into the alps), mainly air dolomiti. There is pretty much no chance to drop out of CAS except if they slog around at less than 1000ft AGL for more than 15 NM.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Here,there and everywhere
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys thanx a lot for your input ...
Well in our case .. they would definitely cross the uncontrolled airspace - airport is surrounded by the mountains .. MSA and MRVA in the area concerned are at approx. 9000' and above .. therefore uncontrolled airspace between 5000 and 9000' ... glider and "what-not" activity in that area ..mostly unknown to ATC ...
M609 - thanx for the reference to Doc.7030 ... but I wonder why Visual departures are not even mentioned in our "bible" Doc.4444 ...
(thats an interesting reading there.. but in our case - none of the required is published )
Well in our case .. they would definitely cross the uncontrolled airspace - airport is surrounded by the mountains .. MSA and MRVA in the area concerned are at approx. 9000' and above .. therefore uncontrolled airspace between 5000 and 9000' ... glider and "what-not" activity in that area ..mostly unknown to ATC ...
M609 - thanx for the reference to Doc.7030 ... but I wonder why Visual departures are not even mentioned in our "bible" Doc.4444 ...
(thats an interesting reading there.. but in our case - none of the required is published )
