UK ATC Direct Routings late at night
UK ATC Direct Routings late at night
So there we were flogging through Germany on a sunday night inbound to BHX.
Fear not we thought, Maastricht will sort out direct to Honily long before we get to Denut.
Cleared direct to Rapix - mmmm - we don't want to do the full Grove arrival via LAM - lets see what London say on handover.
'May we route direct to HON ?'
'Er, no, the next sector won't let you do that unless you originally filed RAPIX-WELIN. Very sorry but you can go to LAM if you wish' Controller a bit sheepish and apologetic.
Thinks bubble - very, very quiet tonight, what's the problem. Change of sector.
Continue to LAM but eventually given direct to Hemel which saves about forty three metres!
Change of sector - 'OK cleared direct Honily' - no problem.
So, is there some internal politics going on here within London ATC ? Has my Company upset someone ? Perhaps we have just been spoilt all these years getting expeditious direct routes late at night when there is little traffic about.
We take a lot of time and trouble to reduce track miles and consequent fuel burn - it seems that just for the moment we are not being helped as much as we have previously been.
Fear not we thought, Maastricht will sort out direct to Honily long before we get to Denut.
Cleared direct to Rapix - mmmm - we don't want to do the full Grove arrival via LAM - lets see what London say on handover.
'May we route direct to HON ?'
'Er, no, the next sector won't let you do that unless you originally filed RAPIX-WELIN. Very sorry but you can go to LAM if you wish' Controller a bit sheepish and apologetic.
Thinks bubble - very, very quiet tonight, what's the problem. Change of sector.
Continue to LAM but eventually given direct to Hemel which saves about forty three metres!
Change of sector - 'OK cleared direct Honily' - no problem.
So, is there some internal politics going on here within London ATC ? Has my Company upset someone ? Perhaps we have just been spoilt all these years getting expeditious direct routes late at night when there is little traffic about.
We take a lot of time and trouble to reduce track miles and consequent fuel burn - it seems that just for the moment we are not being helped as much as we have previously been.
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Sounds like one of two things.
Firstly the directs to Hon/Velag might not have been tied up with the TC Midlands controller yet so if you hadn't filed Rapid - Welin then sorry.
Or the TC mids or TC east controller said no to the directs when Cln asked them. As its an ad- hoc procedure they are within their rights to do so. I've never had it turned down when i do night's though. Maybe the TC bod was having a bad day or doesn't like the procedure?
Hope this helps.
Firstly the directs to Hon/Velag might not have been tied up with the TC Midlands controller yet so if you hadn't filed Rapid - Welin then sorry.
Or the TC mids or TC east controller said no to the directs when Cln asked them. As its an ad- hoc procedure they are within their rights to do so. I've never had it turned down when i do night's though. Maybe the TC bod was having a bad day or doesn't like the procedure?
Hope this helps.
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First of all, sorry to hear about your experience......
That is very strange that that has happened. When exactly did this happen? i have just finished a night duty and that is the first thing we think about doing is going direct (it's the first thing i do and sometimes get a slap on the wrist for doing it too early).
Having said that, to organise the direct routeings, there are 5 sectors that have to agree to it i'm afraid. If just one of them (for whatever reason) refuses, then it is the long way round i'm afraid and getting direct routeings the closer you get to your destination to miss out the sector that has refused the direct routeing.
I haven't heard the one that you can only go direct if you have filed RAPIX-WELIN. i don't give a monkeys what you have filed, if allowed, i go direct and make sure all coordinations are effective with relevant sectors.
It sounds to me like a tit-for-tat thing going on there.
That is very strange that that has happened. When exactly did this happen? i have just finished a night duty and that is the first thing we think about doing is going direct (it's the first thing i do and sometimes get a slap on the wrist for doing it too early).
Having said that, to organise the direct routeings, there are 5 sectors that have to agree to it i'm afraid. If just one of them (for whatever reason) refuses, then it is the long way round i'm afraid and getting direct routeings the closer you get to your destination to miss out the sector that has refused the direct routeing.
I haven't heard the one that you can only go direct if you have filed RAPIX-WELIN. i don't give a monkeys what you have filed, if allowed, i go direct and make sure all coordinations are effective with relevant sectors.
It sounds to me like a tit-for-tat thing going on there.
Thanks Chaps
Hopefully just a one off. Normally we get offered direct to HON from Maastricht or even Rhine without even asking for it after midnight - saves a few minutes and some fuel with the added bonus of improving morale after a long night sector home.
Hopefully just a one off. Normally we get offered direct to HON from Maastricht or even Rhine without even asking for it after midnight - saves a few minutes and some fuel with the added bonus of improving morale after a long night sector home.
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Could it be something to do with Flight Plan Adherence?
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I have done a few N duties this week @ MUAC.
We also had a sheepish 'sorry, no can do' when we asked for the night directs. Clacton controller said it was down to the next sector not wanting to take directs. Sounds like internal politics.
We also had a sheepish 'sorry, no can do' when we asked for the night directs. Clacton controller said it was down to the next sector not wanting to take directs. Sounds like internal politics.
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Sunday and Monday night there were definitely no directs.
All we had from the East was TNT for the Manchester traffic, im presuming that was allowed because it tracks more to the North?
The TNT and UPS flights out of Koln were all quite surprised to be routing via DENUT rather than VELAG etc.
All we had from the East was TNT for the Manchester traffic, im presuming that was allowed because it tracks more to the North?
The TNT and UPS flights out of Koln were all quite surprised to be routing via DENUT rather than VELAG etc.
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It all depends on the TC controller on Midlands unfortunately. 95% of them allow direct HON and VELAG. Some are pedantic and won't allow them to route to VELAG as apparently it drops below CAS- there's a lot of traffic around at that time of night(!!) 
Then you have the MACC guys, some allow you to go to DAYNE and NANTI, others want it all via TNT. Depends who's on there unfortunately.
TC East seem pretty good, often giving DCT LAM for right base when EGSS is on 04 rather than follow the whole ABBOT arrival or direct the LUT etc.
Oh and most directs are tied up after 2300 local usually or when the traffic dies down....
Then you have the MACC guys, some allow you to go to DAYNE and NANTI, others want it all via TNT. Depends who's on there unfortunately.
TC East seem pretty good, often giving DCT LAM for right base when EGSS is on 04 rather than follow the whole ABBOT arrival or direct the LUT etc.
Oh and most directs are tied up after 2300 local usually or when the traffic dies down....
Last edited by Topjet; 14th Feb 2012 at 21:31. Reason: To add more in
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If you route direct to DAYNE from, say, Clacton, it increases the chance of a hold at DAYNE to lose the height. Due to the geometry of controlled airspace east of Manch, it can make it awkward for Manchester Approach to give continuous descents. while keeping traffic inside CAS. One of the problems is a portion of the TMA known as The Camphill Fillet, where the base is FL65. Routing to TNT works better. NANTI, for EGGP is not usually a problem.
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I would guess that the whole "remaining inside CAS" argument is the cause. On top of that, no radar service can be given below FL70 so it'll be a basic, at which point pilot says they cannot accept the basic service........ Just not worth it, if the flightplan has been filed to remain inside CAS then give the appropriate directs which may be different to those pilots are used to.
REVTU - MAY into EGKK is another hit and miss route now too, some TC controllers will take them descending FL200 and offer the deconfliction service if necessary, some will not, some aircraft won't descend outside CAS and they then end up high and fast.....
REVTU - MAY into EGKK is another hit and miss route now too, some TC controllers will take them descending FL200 and offer the deconfliction service if necessary, some will not, some aircraft won't descend outside CAS and they then end up high and fast.....
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ZOOKER - a hold would only be necessary if the pilot messes up his descent(speed brakes are for their mistakes, not ours?) Everyone is on a 'when ready' so i think it's safe to say that they will all be descending on profile for an idle thrust CDA. What's probably most frustrating for pilots is the inconsistencys.
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Beamers experience really is a pretty poor service provision given that time of night and very low traffic level.
Direct HON for BB inbounds at that time of night does not involve leaving CAS, and has been the 'norm' for years (many thanks to those who do their BEST to provide that).
As a balance, Fri and Sat night operated inbound EGCN from the Canaries. Upon request on both occasions BHD planner co-ordinated BHD-HON-EGCN. A huge saving was achieved if you look at that on a chart as compared with routing via MONTY.
Many thanks - as it should be! Blue Watch both nights
Direct HON for BB inbounds at that time of night does not involve leaving CAS, and has been the 'norm' for years (many thanks to those who do their BEST to provide that).
As a balance, Fri and Sat night operated inbound EGCN from the Canaries. Upon request on both occasions BHD planner co-ordinated BHD-HON-EGCN. A huge saving was achieved if you look at that on a chart as compared with routing via MONTY.
Many thanks - as it should be! Blue Watch both nights
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Beamer,
All is good
Excellent avionics, gentle roster, and everything ACARS :-)
Not sure what caused Sunday nights problems, but as we both know it's not normal. Do email me if it becomes so and I'll push from a customer perspective. 99.9% of guys are fantastic, and would have given best service, however we all have the .1% on both sides of the industry, so I'll put it down to that unless it becomes repetative (which I highly doubt!).
Must appologise to 10W, forgot Scottish in my first post, but both nights FULLY played their part in co-ordinating and accepting non standard routing from the West End and Group North guys. It's more the norm than not from both centres.
Rgds to all at Brum.
Cheers
30W
All is good
Excellent avionics, gentle roster, and everything ACARS :-)
Not sure what caused Sunday nights problems, but as we both know it's not normal. Do email me if it becomes so and I'll push from a customer perspective. 99.9% of guys are fantastic, and would have given best service, however we all have the .1% on both sides of the industry, so I'll put it down to that unless it becomes repetative (which I highly doubt!).
Must appologise to 10W, forgot Scottish in my first post, but both nights FULLY played their part in co-ordinating and accepting non standard routing from the West End and Group North guys. It's more the norm than not from both centres.
Rgds to all at Brum.
Cheers
30W
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I've heard about this happening. ALLEGEDLY, there is one controller on TC Mids who refuses to allow clacton (and therefore Maastricht) any directs.
It has been complained about from the area side but as I understand it, the controller isn't technically doing anything wrong and therefore not much can be done. I'm sure though that if enough pilots alert their ops departments that it is happening, then external pressure may result in something being done.
From what I've heard its embarrasing for the Claction controllers to have to not allow directs because one person in another room is on a misguided one man mission. Fingers crossed it will get sorted out soon.
Must stress, that it is only one person and the rest of TC are very helpful in sorting directs out.
It has been complained about from the area side but as I understand it, the controller isn't technically doing anything wrong and therefore not much can be done. I'm sure though that if enough pilots alert their ops departments that it is happening, then external pressure may result in something being done.
From what I've heard its embarrasing for the Claction controllers to have to not allow directs because one person in another room is on a misguided one man mission. Fingers crossed it will get sorted out soon.
Must stress, that it is only one person and the rest of TC are very helpful in sorting directs out.
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Reminds me of years back late one evening on Clacton....Phoned Maastricht; "Can I send Big Jet 123 direct any where?" (expecting Gerninghausen) .....a very German voice answered " Negative it must route via Redfa" . That's odd, I thought. Phone from Maastricht goes about 30 seconds later. This time a Dutch voice said "why don't you send Big Jet 123 direct to Gerninghausen?" I thanked him and explained what his colleague had said only seconds earlier. "ah" he said "we have a special technical term for him". "Whats that then? " I asked. "We call him a f***ing idiot" he said.
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I'm sure though that if enough pilots alert their ops departments that it is happening, then external pressure may result in something being done.
You, or NATS, cannot force a controller to give a short cut, however sensible the routing might be. The fact that I have heard of this, know the controller concerned, and think they are being a bit of an arse is beside the point!
Make it a Flight Plannable route, then get airlines to file it.
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Day 1. I telephone nats for a clearance on the flight-planned route A-B-C, get told "no thanks, send him D-E-F".
Day 2. Flight-planned route A-B-C, requested D-E-F based on Day 1 experience, cleared D-E-F, launched D-E-F.
Subsequent snotto-call from nats "why hasn't he routed A-B-C as per FPL ?".
Can't win.
If D-E-F is acceptable to nats then make it a Flight Plannable route, so that the operator may file it. Otherwise don't suggest it or accept it.
It's called consistency...
Day 2. Flight-planned route A-B-C, requested D-E-F based on Day 1 experience, cleared D-E-F, launched D-E-F.
Subsequent snotto-call from nats "why hasn't he routed A-B-C as per FPL ?".
Can't win.
If D-E-F is acceptable to nats then make it a Flight Plannable route, so that the operator may file it. Otherwise don't suggest it or accept it.
It's called consistency...