Airfield departure times
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Airfield departure times
Can somebody educate me please! (Someone from EBBR flow control would be ideal.)
Situation - Departing Spanish airport yesterday for flight to UK. No slot (ctot) issued.
Passengers arrive early for 1200 departure. Perfect!
Arrive at holding point at 1153. No other aircraft about. Given a time check and told to hold position as earliest airborne time is 1200.
I understand that if we had a slot of 1200 we must depart between 1155 and 1210.
But why do we have to wait till 1200 if we have no slot? I thought plus or minus 15 minutes was the requirement in this situation?
Only seems to happen in Spain. Why? What are the actual rules?
Situation - Departing Spanish airport yesterday for flight to UK. No slot (ctot) issued.
Passengers arrive early for 1200 departure. Perfect!
Arrive at holding point at 1153. No other aircraft about. Given a time check and told to hold position as earliest airborne time is 1200.
I understand that if we had a slot of 1200 we must depart between 1155 and 1210.
But why do we have to wait till 1200 if we have no slot? I thought plus or minus 15 minutes was the requirement in this situation?
Only seems to happen in Spain. Why? What are the actual rules?
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I think he said in this situation there was no Slot issued.
Working tower I've received releases for aircraft with the proviso "not before time xxxx", could be whats happened here and the time only coincidently matches the fp time.
Working tower I've received releases for aircraft with the proviso "not before time xxxx", could be whats happened here and the time only coincidently matches the fp time.
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Spainish ATC are sticking absolutely rigidly to thou shalt no take off before your STD slot or no slot. My understanding of this is that they are saying that in the absence of a CTOT your STD becomes your CTOT. Not sure if this in an official rule or something the Spanish have made up, probably the latter.
I was told by someone, so this is second possibly third hand, that Spanish ATC management were fighting the work to rule by totally enforcing the work to rule. I.E. Instigating discipilinary action should they be broken. Hence no directs or earlier departures. "Overloading sectors with unplanned or extra movements" I believe is the official reason.
I just assume my earliest airborne is now my STD. If you're early just tell the pax it's the dirty dagos again and have another cuppa !
I've given up getting annoyed by the Spanish it is a pointless exercise they aren't going to change no matter how irrate you get with them. All you do is wind yourself up which is exactly what they want. As Clint would say "Don't give the ******** the satisfaction !".
I was told by someone, so this is second possibly third hand, that Spanish ATC management were fighting the work to rule by totally enforcing the work to rule. I.E. Instigating discipilinary action should they be broken. Hence no directs or earlier departures. "Overloading sectors with unplanned or extra movements" I believe is the official reason.
I just assume my earliest airborne is now my STD. If you're early just tell the pax it's the dirty dagos again and have another cuppa !
I've given up getting annoyed by the Spanish it is a pointless exercise they aren't going to change no matter how irrate you get with them. All you do is wind yourself up which is exactly what they want. As Clint would say "Don't give the ******** the satisfaction !".
Last edited by CheekyVisual; 25th Aug 2011 at 11:31.
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CheektVisual,
Thank you for that. What I need is a link to the actual, official rules for this situation. If the Spanish are so intent on complying with regulations then they need to know what they are - and so do we!
Thank you for that. What I need is a link to the actual, official rules for this situation. If the Spanish are so intent on complying with regulations then they need to know what they are - and so do we!
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Chevvron,
+ or - 15 mins is my understanding of the situation. Seems to apply everywhere except Spain. Can you be a real star and guide me to the official document. Thanks.
+ or - 15 mins is my understanding of the situation. Seems to apply everywhere except Spain. Can you be a real star and guide me to the official document. Thanks.
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Splitduty.... There are many reasons why your "problem" could have occurred. Local traffic, for example. Just because the runway is empty does not mean anyone can just take off. Most times one can, but there will, inevitably, be times when other traffic will dictate what happens. Where I worked there were numerous aerial activities which sometimes delayed our traffic - military surveys, police and ambulance helicopters, Royal flights, even loonies doing sky-diving! Crews never questioned us because they knew would get them away as fast as poss.
I know that things are different in other countries, but where I worked there was always a perfectly good reason for how the traffic was handled and the only people who knew the reason were the controllers.
I know that things are different in other countries, but where I worked there was always a perfectly good reason for how the traffic was handled and the only people who knew the reason were the controllers.
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HD,
Had the Spanish Controller explained any of the hypothetical reasons you mention above that would have been acceptable.
However, he made it perfectly clear that we were not departing because our FPL time was on the hour and as it was time 53 when we arrived at the holding point, we had to hold.
I am trying to ascertain if he was complying with the rules or not.
Had the Spanish Controller explained any of the hypothetical reasons you mention above that would have been acceptable.
However, he made it perfectly clear that we were not departing because our FPL time was on the hour and as it was time 53 when we arrived at the holding point, we had to hold.
I am trying to ascertain if he was complying with the rules or not.
ENR 1.9 page 2 para 5.1. sub para e. says it's a European requirement that any modification of EOBT more than +/_ 15 mins shall notifiy the change to CFMU through EFPS, which implies if you're within +/_ 15 you can go.
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Blissbak - we did ask the reason and were told our earliest departure time was on the hour because that was our FPL departure time. I repeat - no slot.
Chevvron - thank you again for your efforts. What I now need to find is some more detail :-
1) is this purely a British procedure,
2) does the + or - time apply to off blocks time or to an airborne time?
I think this may be the crux of the problem. I am hoping someone with flow control knowledge will supply the answer and reference to this.
Chevvron - thank you again for your efforts. What I now need to find is some more detail :-
1) is this purely a British procedure,
2) does the + or - time apply to off blocks time or to an airborne time?
I think this may be the crux of the problem. I am hoping someone with flow control knowledge will supply the answer and reference to this.
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splitduty,
Your scheduled depature was at 1200, you took off at 1200...
You did fly your flight plan route to the French entry point, got a 450NM direct to the UK entry point, which saved you a bit less than 1 min, got another direct with UK, which saved you another minute.
Then you had to turn once or twice for the sequencing at arrival (here, you lose 2 mins)... and you're just on time to see a departing plane vacate your gate, for him to depart just on time...
This is a part of the big picture.
That's the way flow management works.
With or without CTOT. Your flight is counted, even though not slotted.
If you're too early on an almost overloaded sector, then slot allocations will be implemented for those who are still on the gate. One of them could be the one who is at your gate...
If you're early, you will probably have to wait on arrival. For your gate if you're on the ground, for the runway if you're still airborne.
PS : I reckon there's a +/- rule in every CFMU country. At least, there should be.
Your scheduled depature was at 1200, you took off at 1200...
You did fly your flight plan route to the French entry point, got a 450NM direct to the UK entry point, which saved you a bit less than 1 min, got another direct with UK, which saved you another minute.
Then you had to turn once or twice for the sequencing at arrival (here, you lose 2 mins)... and you're just on time to see a departing plane vacate your gate, for him to depart just on time...
This is a part of the big picture.
That's the way flow management works.
With or without CTOT. Your flight is counted, even though not slotted.
If you're too early on an almost overloaded sector, then slot allocations will be implemented for those who are still on the gate. One of them could be the one who is at your gate...
If you're early, you will probably have to wait on arrival. For your gate if you're on the ground, for the runway if you're still airborne.
PS : I reckon there's a +/- rule in every CFMU country. At least, there should be.
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BrATCO,
I thought for a moment you were agreeing with the Spanish operation until your PS comment that all CFMU countries should have a + or - departure rule.
That is my point entirely - we were not allowed to depart early. Why not?
I thought for a moment you were agreeing with the Spanish operation until your PS comment that all CFMU countries should have a + or - departure rule.
That is my point entirely - we were not allowed to depart early. Why not?
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The +-15' is not British but a IFPZ procedure applied to the EOBT, thus your taxi must be in accord and your departure within ETOT and by any chance not earlier than EOBT -15'.
If you wonder why, that's 'cause CFMU process your flight according the time you give him and the system decide whether you need to be regulated or not, any time the schedule is not respected the system got ******.
My guess, maybe spanish require you to be airborne exactly at your ETOT .....
If you wonder why, that's 'cause CFMU process your flight according the time you give him and the system decide whether you need to be regulated or not, any time the schedule is not respected the system got ******.
My guess, maybe spanish require you to be airborne exactly at your ETOT .....
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Splitduty,
I don't agree, nor disagree. I just wouldn't like being in their shoes.
You complain about Spanish service... wait for SESAR and its semi-automated control system. I forecast that the rule will be +/- 1 min all over Europe, otherwise the system will screw.
Don't worry, this is not for tomorrow.
I don't agree, nor disagree. I just wouldn't like being in their shoes.
You complain about Spanish service... wait for SESAR and its semi-automated control system. I forecast that the rule will be +/- 1 min all over Europe, otherwise the system will screw.
Don't worry, this is not for tomorrow.