Latest point for obtaining landing clearance?
If the weather was at minimas she wouldn't have been waiting for RWY sep on a departing aircraft because she would have to be protecting the missed approach, so no one would have departed infront of you once you were inside 5NM or so. She must have had a vehicle on the RWY which may have been on a ground freq? Whatever the case she won't have been mucking you around for fun. I'm impressed you went around, I know of a number of examples where the aircraft has seen a clear RWY and just decided to land on it.
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Fact of the matter is Charlie a lot of the locals land without
clearances if they're forgotten to be issued or missed. There
are always minor incidences including one recently where a
B737 almost hit an inspection car who was too impatient to
wait to cross the runway for some reason (maybe busting for
a leak who knows). Complicated story but in essence the guy
went ahead and landed anyway. All of this is just Third world
mentality with a vengeance.
As for the meeting the CP agreed I had to cause to go around
and it won't be a blemish in my record. He said he'll "have a
chat to ATC", which unofficially means it'll be all swept under
the carpet so as to not cause ruffles.
clearances if they're forgotten to be issued or missed. There
are always minor incidences including one recently where a
B737 almost hit an inspection car who was too impatient to
wait to cross the runway for some reason (maybe busting for
a leak who knows). Complicated story but in essence the guy
went ahead and landed anyway. All of this is just Third world
mentality with a vengeance.
As for the meeting the CP agreed I had to cause to go around
and it won't be a blemish in my record. He said he'll "have a
chat to ATC", which unofficially means it'll be all swept under
the carpet so as to not cause ruffles.
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The other few expats here say he's ok, but "taking a peep at
my records to make sure" in his eyes would imply I don't
trust him (and I don't), but mainly invites further problems
down the track if I should ever end up in the **** for real and
he's still fleet CP. One has to understand the culture if one is
in it for long term survival.
I just found out this afternoon, by my own sources, that said
Tower bunny was bawled out and a stern warning given. This
would give added weight that that the CP won't put any dark
stains on my file (or rather my "dossier" which would be more
accurate).
Again thanks for all your replies and comments.
my records to make sure" in his eyes would imply I don't
trust him (and I don't), but mainly invites further problems
down the track if I should ever end up in the **** for real and
he's still fleet CP. One has to understand the culture if one is
in it for long term survival.
I just found out this afternoon, by my own sources, that said
Tower bunny was bawled out and a stern warning given. This
would give added weight that that the CP won't put any dark
stains on my file (or rather my "dossier" which would be more
accurate).
Again thanks for all your replies and comments.
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As per Doc 4444 the landing clearance generally shall be given at or before 4 miles to touch down. But if the aircraft is radar monitored or radar vectored the landing clearance shall be at or before 2 miles from touch down.
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Surely civil pilots have a procedure minima to fly to that if they cannot obtain a clearance before, they will instigate a go around? At 50' i'd be wanting to see the pilot deciding to put the power in and say "going round". Suppose its different at large civil airports, as you can't just join a circuit, its back out for a MAP.
An interesting conversation but the answer is clear enough. The ATCO stuffed up, the pilot's short final call should have elicited a landing clearance, the captain did the right thing by going around. In thirty tower years I have seen all combinations:
Relations don't sound too good if we are dreaming up derogatory names for colleagues. I wonder what "tower bunny" calls expat pilots?
Everybody makes mistakes we should accept that and move on.
- Distracted and been reminded;
- Given landing clearance more than once;
- Had a go around because I did not issue clearance (distracted again not eating) and pilot chose to say nothing;
- had aircraft land when I have not issued a landing clearance (ditto as above) Tower..You did clear us to land didn't you? Absolutely!
Relations don't sound too good if we are dreaming up derogatory names for colleagues. I wonder what "tower bunny" calls expat pilots?
Everybody makes mistakes we should accept that and move on.
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As per Doc 4444 the landing clearance generally shall be given at or before 4 miles to touch down. But if the aircraft is radar monitored or radar vectored the landing clearance shall be at or before 2 miles from touch down.
the MaPt in IMC.
However there are times when a certain degree of flexibility is
needed on the part of crew in order to maintain an expeditous
flow of traffic without infringing on legality (+ safety) in VMC.
So, my question to the ATCOs here was how late can it legally
be given in >10 and visual for all intents and purposes, which
in my opinion is 50ft.
Relations don't sound too good if we are dreaming up derogatory names for colleagues. I wonder what "tower bunny" calls expat pilots?
very young (and quite nubile!) female ATCOs around here. I
don't know what they call us, maybe an equivalent to "white
randy buggers" in their own lingo I've no idea.
In the UK you may not cross the begining of the runway is that runway is occupied (or without landing clearance if required?). If there is ATC there are various methods (such as conditional landing clearance) which allow a smidge closer. I'm sure some of the more accademic ATCOs can point to the CAP393 and MATS part 1 references to this.
NOW, define the beginning of the runway...
NOW, define the beginning of the runway...
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I can understand there are are times when a pilot thinks that its better to GA. There are cases when ATC lines up an acft and gives takeoff clearance all calculated that arrival will be given landing clearance at 2 miles to touchdown. But all of sudden arrival says Going Around. ATCO will definitely have heart attack as there is no separation between dep and acft GA and RA may be trigered at any time leading to inquiry.
It is the confidence between pilot and ATC that really matters which is generally missing. This may be because both are trained in a very different environment.
This situation is becoming more dangerous as the separation is being reduced from 10 to 5 to 3 miles in past years.
The worst part is there is no means where a pilot or controller can read each other mind. I dont know if this factor is considered by the authorities when framing separations.
It is the confidence between pilot and ATC that really matters which is generally missing. This may be because both are trained in a very different environment.
This situation is becoming more dangerous as the separation is being reduced from 10 to 5 to 3 miles in past years.
The worst part is there is no means where a pilot or controller can read each other mind. I dont know if this factor is considered by the authorities when framing separations.
ameet, if you don't have an option to maintain some form of valid separation, be it visual or radar, in the event that any aircraft overshoots "unexpectedly" at any point, I would suggest that your unit procedures are deficient.
You always have to have a "plan B".
If something can happen, sooner or later it will.
Murphy's law.
You always have to have a "plan B".
If something can happen, sooner or later it will.
Murphy's law.
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Originally Posted by Dan Dare
In the UK you may not cross the begining of the runway is that runway is occupied (or without landing clearance if required?). If there is ATC there are various methods (such as conditional landing clearance) which allow a smidge closer. I'm sure some of the more accademic ATCOs can point to the CAP393 and MATS part 1 references to this.
NOW, define the beginning of the runway...
NOW, define the beginning of the runway...
Unless specific procedures have been approved by the CAA, a landing aircraft shall not be permitted to cross the beginning of the runway on its final approach until a preceding aircraft, departing from the same runway, is airborne.
ICAO
The beginning of that portion of the runway useable for landing.
