Oxford Radar

[Danscowpie]

Radar need only be manned for scheduled IFR movements if that is what Oxford want to do... meaning the number of radar controllers is more than enough.

Anotherthing.
Total and utter nonsense.
This isn't the hotel industry where split shifts are the norm.
If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.
Thank God that the UK ATC service isn't run by you.

Thanks for the info' re SSR Smithy.

It's great that SSR will be available, makes life much easier for all, but the annual cost makes the reason for going for LARS asap all the more sensible.
The SSR will cost about £35k per year, LARS on a 0800 - 1900, 7 day a week basis will bring in around £90k per year, but convincing those who make such decisions in the CAA and DAP is no easy task.

It isn't going to be an easy ride.

[Gonzo]

If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.

But if Oxford want to limit the hours of operation, or even cite; "As directed" then that's up to them, isn't it?

I also thought that the money in the LARS pot does not increase if a new unit takes on the task, that any new LARS unit will take money away from existing units.

[Danscowpie]

I also thought that the money in the LARS pot does not increase if a new unit takes on the task, that any new LARS unit will take money away from existing units.

Correct.

I don't think there's a MOD unit in the UK which provides LARS on a commercially viable basis, they do it because they have the equipment and staffing which they don't really need for the specific airfield use, but LARS does justify the written business case to the MOD Bean counters.
Most RAF LARS providers get more than their civillian counterparts for providing the same or a lesser service because they do so with more staff.
Bonkers I know, but at the moment, that's the way it works.

It makes sense that if Oxford could demonstrate that they have the capacity to offer LARS, they'd stand a very good chance of getting it and get much needed revenue from it.

It's up to them.

[anotherthing]

Danscowpie

Not tosh at all. Oxford can operate the service they want to with 6 ATCOs. Oxford will know exactly what fee paying flights there will be, and when. They can tailor services as per requirements quite legally; to quote you 'subject to unit constraints'.

There are many other small airports that operate this way, opening and closing radar, SRATCOH does not become an issue.

The owners of Oxford have big plans for the airfield; in the short term it will cost a lot of money but if their plans come to fruition then they should recoup it. They are in it for the long term, not some fly-by-night operation.

£90k for providing LARS is a tiny amount of money (and does not even get near to covering the ATCOs wages to provide the service hours you quote required to get that money), though obviously any income helps, in this case it would be a false economy. Money from LARS is usually an extra income brought about by using ATCOs already in the system... it is certainly not a viable commercial operation to train and pay ATCOs to give an 11 hours per day 7 days a week service.

The owners of the airfield are not exactly short of a penny or two...

soaringhhigh650

I think it's time for people to stop thinking about about "CAT airspace" or "GA airspace" or "Military airspace". Airspace is to be shared and used by all.

irrespective of what you think, there is class A airspace in the UK where VFR flight is not permitted. Due to requirements for the Olympics, Class G airspace can be re-classified without consultation by HMG decree for a limited period. This is what happened in the Oxford area, but as stated, a different way to deal with that particular traffic has been found thus the airspace will no longer be required, hence the phrase 'handed back'.

[controlx]

With the naysayers above, it does seem a bit off to have a go at what is an extraordinary step forward for a GA airport that's been around for 75 years in busy uncontrolled airspace. What other UK GA airport out there today would cough up £4m or so and pay the costs of running the primary and secondary radar to ensure a safer environment for all who travel to and through that zone? Yes, they have aspirations for some commercial stuff, but this is about protecting GA, by far the greatest users of that airspace. They should be commended for taking this huge step forward, at vast expense, to make the sky a little bit safer for all of us. It's doubtful that there will be a full, all day, every day service from the start, but a gradual stepping up of capability once all have the training, experiance etc. behind them. It's a progressive, forward-thinking airport spending a lot on infrastructure right through a period of economic doom since the new owners bought it in 2007. That said, some of the other key GA/regional airrports around London continue to spend large sums on enhancing their airrports too - thank goodness people are still spending money at these places.

[trafficnotsighted]

Controlx - Well said.

At the other end of the scale you have Plymouth Airport due to close at the end of the year (if there are enough staff to keep it open till then) due to the lack of investment over the years to keep it viable.

[Not Long Now]

It may well have a side effect of providing better safety for all who use the area, but let's not get too carried away here. This is not an altruistic act by Oxford to help it's beloved GA community, it is being driven fairly and squarely by the desire to attract and keep more biz jet, and possibly even further down the line, low cost, operators. If you want someone to provide a radar service purely for the benefit of non fee paying GA, I suggest Warren Buffet may be more likely. He seems to have money to burn, and indeed is partial to the odd billion dollar donation.

[anotherthing]

it is being driven fairly and squarely by the desire to attract and keep more biz jet, and possibly even further down the line, low cost, operators

Correct, with an equal emphasis on 'keeping'. They already have bizjet, and there already have been meetings where operators have expressed an interest in flying certain routes at certain time on certain days of the week in the near future.

Some operators may deem that the risk is too high for them to fly a couple of proposed routes, so will decide not to... So of course this radar installation is a business decision by the airport owners. They're not in it for an aviation safety award!!!

They know exactly what scheduled flights they want to afford protection to. The number of ATCOs that will have a radar ticket will be commensurate with that task initially. Should Oxford be succesful in attracting more business down the line, then they will beef up the service accordingly.

The plus side is that eventually there might be a real benefit to the general aviation community in terms of service available.
However it comes about, added safety in this part of the UK should be welcomed - it is an extremely busy area with quite a few 'incidents' weekly. The fact the 'incidents' happen in Class G i.e. 'see and avoid' means that what would be a very nasty airprox in controlled airspace is just 'what you can expect to get' in class G.

[Francis Frogbound]

As an Oxford based corporate pilot I'm delighted at the plans. Twenty five years ago when I was an OATS student radar would have been nice, with the growth in commercial IFR movements it is now essential. I've seen their plans and how they intend to pay for it and I have every confidence in them. The airport owners have invested a huge amount of money to encourage business, unlike some others who are waiting for the business to grow before spending anything.

Heathrow Director: they still get a clothing allowance and they are very generous with their coffee in the tower (well a warm brown drink anyway) and you would probably feel right back at home, apart from the lack of comical welshmen and sandal wearing controllers/engineers.

FF

[Barnaby the Bear]

Anotherthing.
Total and utter nonsense.
This isn't the hotel industry where split shifts are the norm.
If a radar service is notified as available in the UKAIP, then it's available to all operators who wish to participate subject to coverage and unit constraints.
Thank God that the UK ATC service isn't run by you.

Sorry Downscowpie, but if Oxford decide to only man the Radar during periods of their own Commercial traffic movements, that is entirely up to them.
If they are notified as a LARS provider during published times, then they would have to NOTAM any extended periods of closure.

Oxford are spending millions on this equipment for there own long term business plan to provide a more robust safety case for potential users, and fair play to them. Like it or not the UK is made up of 'Private Airfields'. They are not charities.