Expected STAR on first contact with London?
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I can't see myself using it much, as it stands we can only give routings and ask requested levels (if I remember correctly and it was a while ago I did my "training")
Also we're not supposed to use it below Fl195 which negates me asking just about all my traffic their RFL as they're below that when they come to me.
Likewise, we still have to acknowledge any a/c checking in by voice, so why not give them their routing in the same call - like we do now. If it's too busy to give them a routing via voice now, then it will be too busy to hunt through menus and click on things and watch for little indicators on the radar to change colour
Also we're not supposed to use it below Fl195 which negates me asking just about all my traffic their RFL as they're below that when they come to me.
Likewise, we still have to acknowledge any a/c checking in by voice, so why not give them their routing in the same call - like we do now. If it's too busy to give them a routing via voice now, then it will be too busy to hunt through menus and click on things and watch for little indicators on the radar to change colour
Join Date: Feb 2006
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You can't issue a STAR via CPDLC because its not part if the mandated message set that eurocontrol wants. I'm not sure if its a msg you can even send via CPDLC. Also free text as far as I know won't be coming in as "there is too much scope for it to be misused"....
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Due to the speed-based holding depending on the time anticipated in the LHR hold, could this be given by ATC on first contact to assist with vertical planning. To offset against this I currently (A320) assume a worst case of 250kts and request descent from there.
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My issue with CPDLC is the significant potential loss of spatial awareness for flight crews. At the moment if a crew is just hearing 8 inbounds being given the STAR they are on then there is a nudge that they may get a delay or that the sector is busy. Do it on CPDLC and that hint,awareness or whatever you want to call it is gone. I suspect the use of CPDLC will be extremely limited or even nada.
Back to CPDLC... I can see some use in it i.e. stuck mic message and a few others. Even at the airports for clearance delivery etc. In a TMA or other dynamic environment the response time mandate is still WAY off for using it tactically. Even a frequency change message would be of little use. Again, I think it would be of good use in En-route but the issue of eroded situational awareness really is something to take into consideration...
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The requirement for the STAR to be confirmed by either the pilot or ATC is purely to confirm the clearance limit in case of RT fail. My understanding of the trial was to ensure that if holding at at an outer fix was taking place that ATC passed that on should the pilot have already stated the STAR eg. "BA123 on a LAM 3A" but holding is taking place at BRASO so does ATC always intervene with the new clearance limit. I'm not aware of any that have gone beyond the correct clearance limit over the 5 year trial.
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Has there been anything further on this trial of passing expected STAR on first contact with London.
I did so today (as I do whenever I'm PM coming back to the UK), for the controller to acknowledge with "XZY123, Roger". The Captain then looked at me like I had two heads and said that "we hadn't been given the STAR". I tried explaining about this trial, but he didn't seem to enamoured with the idea...
I did so today (as I do whenever I'm PM coming back to the UK), for the controller to acknowledge with "XZY123, Roger". The Captain then looked at me like I had two heads and said that "we hadn't been given the STAR". I tried explaining about this trial, but he didn't seem to enamoured with the idea...
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Having just read the whole thread again, nothing has changed and the trial is still going on. Enroute holding has happened and I haven't heard of any aircraft going beyond any fix they shouldn't. Probably to do with being told "on reaching "#####", take up the hold" which is quite precise and not really open for much misinterpretation.
I am more than happy for every aircraft on first call to give their expected STAR, a few Ryanair's and even some private flights are catching on, it all makes the job slightly easier.
I am more than happy for every aircraft on first call to give their expected STAR, a few Ryanair's and even some private flights are catching on, it all makes the job slightly easier.
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Personally, if you know the STAR feel free to tell me you're expecting it when you first check in; it's saving RT time especially now it's starting to get busy again. I did a fam flight with MON a few years ago and was trying to persuade the crew to get into the habit.
I'd imagine the original trial (can't believe it's still a 'trial' after so long!) was sent out the initial airline group involved. I think it's worth making it better publicised and certainly open to all, a NOTAM might solve this.
I'd imagine the original trial (can't believe it's still a 'trial' after so long!) was sent out the initial airline group involved. I think it's worth making it better publicised and certainly open to all, a NOTAM might solve this.
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What a great idea!! Pilots giving themselves clearances!!! Surely we can take this further...maybe 'clearance delivery, Liljet101, expecting clearance direct' Awesome!!! How could it ever go wrong?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Hempy, hence it being a trial. Which has been going on now for several years. And nothing has gone wrong. Probably to do with all controllers correcting the pilots should they check in with an incorrect STAR. Which has happened. And corrected with no bad results.
Considering the flights presumably received an airways clearance which was based on the filed flight plan, why can't we just fly the filed STAR. Outside the US, ATCOs seem to delight in keeping the STAR routing a secret. Why is that?
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STAR's depend on a number of factors, including runway in use and traffic load. Often you'll be put on a STAR to ease the coordination between ACC and APP, and give APP a nice flow of aircrafts following specified paths, seperating them from aircrafts following SID's.
At some point they're taken og the STAR's for vectoring for a nice spacing on the final.
So the STAR's and SID's are there to ease the load on controllers, making them able to handle more traffic.
You'll often see more direct routings for a fix on/or close to the final during hours with less trafficload, or more direct tracks after departure.
So filing a STAR in your flight plan, won't really do any difference to the STAR given (pre-coordinated between ACC and APP/sector and sector).
At some point they're taken og the STAR's for vectoring for a nice spacing on the final.
So the STAR's and SID's are there to ease the load on controllers, making them able to handle more traffic.
You'll often see more direct routings for a fix on/or close to the final during hours with less trafficload, or more direct tracks after departure.
So filing a STAR in your flight plan, won't really do any difference to the STAR given (pre-coordinated between ACC and APP/sector and sector).
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jmmoric - in the UK where this procedure is being used, the STAR is exactly the same no matter which runway is in use. The determining factor for which STAR you get is simply which route you are on when you enter UK airspace and are all named according to which holding facility the STAR terminates at. The procedures for leaving the holding facility to approach/land are published seperately.
Galaxy Flyer, in the UK the STARs aren't secret, you will normally be told on first contact with London/Scottish exactly which STAR you are to fly, and unless you have made an airborne route amendment, will be exactly as filed.
Galaxy Flyer, in the UK the STARs aren't secret, you will normally be told on first contact with London/Scottish exactly which STAR you are to fly, and unless you have made an airborne route amendment, will be exactly as filed.
