Aircraft holding on Rapid Exit Taxiway
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Fly through
Dont know where your 20 years experience has been accrued but it can't have been at a busy airfield. BOAC keep taking the RET we want you off that runway PDQ.
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Originally Posted by HD
Guess you never operated into a busy airport,
Going back to post#1, that was just crap controlling, and, HD - re post#4, it should be "I think ATC should have told the pilot which exit NOT to use." Think about it.
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As an ATCO having had recent experience of high intensity runway operations, and, I believe, having exchanged many transmissions with BOAC, I agree with him that the decision of where to vacate should always be left to the pilot. If I "instruct" and it all goes horribly wrong, we're all going to get covered in the brown stuff!
At such airfields, the airfield operator, pilots and ATC, usually work together to establish procedures to achieve minimum runway occupancy without compromising safety. These procedures are then widely circulated to all users thereby achieving high rates of compliance. If I know that on a particular day any of the available exits are not available, I will aim to advise the pilot before landing. To specify where to vacate is therefore left to the only person able to know all the factors affecting a rapidly decelerating aircraft - and it isn't me!
Looking out from my glass tower, from the thorough training I receive, I can usually assess where an aircraft is likely to vacate from the observed deceleration rate, so I don't need to ask or specify where to vacate. If I recognise the voice, even more information is instantly available to me as to the likely operation of that aircraft, without having to instruct, or ask any questions.
So on this one HD, I have to disagree with you. Sorry!
At such airfields, the airfield operator, pilots and ATC, usually work together to establish procedures to achieve minimum runway occupancy without compromising safety. These procedures are then widely circulated to all users thereby achieving high rates of compliance. If I know that on a particular day any of the available exits are not available, I will aim to advise the pilot before landing. To specify where to vacate is therefore left to the only person able to know all the factors affecting a rapidly decelerating aircraft - and it isn't me!
Looking out from my glass tower, from the thorough training I receive, I can usually assess where an aircraft is likely to vacate from the observed deceleration rate, so I don't need to ask or specify where to vacate. If I recognise the voice, even more information is instantly available to me as to the likely operation of that aircraft, without having to instruct, or ask any questions.
So on this one HD, I have to disagree with you. Sorry!
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BOAC,
I think the term Crap Controlling is a bit unfair.It was a mistake for whatever reason and could have been a trainee.
I'm sure that you have had a few bouncers,positive arrivals or made some mistakes in 43 years.Also I bet the Tower controller has never said Mr BOAC that was a crap landing
...Even though they were probably tempted.
I think the term Crap Controlling is a bit unfair.It was a mistake for whatever reason and could have been a trainee.
I'm sure that you have had a few bouncers,positive arrivals or made some mistakes in 43 years.Also I bet the Tower controller has never said Mr BOAC that was a crap landing
...Even though they were probably tempted.
Now guys!
I go away from this site for a day and my friends/acquaintances are battling it out!
Having got my 'early go' from LHR in 2000 I erased work from my little brain box, apart from nostalgia of course. I think it was common to nominate the exit point especially on 09L for T4/Cargo traffic ie 'exit at Block 17' and also a switched on Arrivals controller would have spotted embarrassing (for the Ground controller) conflicts on the adjacent taxiway etc.
In the military world the 2-winged master race especially single-seat, sorry BOAC you can bop me at the party,did not like being told to do anything by ATC. Mind you Air France were just the same; they had squatter's rights on the runway at LHR.
Back to my Horlicks! (Beer really)
Having got my 'early go' from LHR in 2000 I erased work from my little brain box, apart from nostalgia of course. I think it was common to nominate the exit point especially on 09L for T4/Cargo traffic ie 'exit at Block 17' and also a switched on Arrivals controller would have spotted embarrassing (for the Ground controller) conflicts on the adjacent taxiway etc.
In the military world the 2-winged master race especially single-seat, sorry BOAC you can bop me at the party,did not like being told to do anything by ATC. Mind you Air France were just the same; they had squatter's rights on the runway at LHR.
Back to my Horlicks! (Beer really)
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chevvron, no idea where it comes from.
I saw it once during my training whilst still on watching the OJTI and no R/T and it went wrong, trying to help the ground man out, but left until last minute as it was turning off. Needless to say I don't use it now!!
As 161R says, if we say vacate at abc, and it goes into the grass there is only one person at fault!!
I saw it once during my training whilst still on watching the OJTI and no R/T and it went wrong, trying to help the ground man out, but left until last minute as it was turning off. Needless to say I don't use it now!!
As 161R says, if we say vacate at abc, and it goes into the grass there is only one person at fault!!
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Never use the word next try "vacate first right and contact ground when vacated" as next means not this one but the next! Seen it done and it got very messy. I will only say vacate first when the aircraft is slow enough to be obvious but some airlines like to take the most convienient for them, not the one that will allow the most efficient use of the runway.
As for whose fault it is if it goes wrong, then I'm afraid that as always it will be the bloke in the pointy end, as they can say no it's not safe.
Sorry, I'm sure that many will disagree, but HIRO requires maximum control.
However, back to the first point, it's poor technique and the controller should have told the pilot that certain exits are not available. But it could be a trainee or indeed a 'brain fart' which I believe we all have and as you get older they happen more frequently.
Anyway good night all. Be safe (or lucky).
As for whose fault it is if it goes wrong, then I'm afraid that as always it will be the bloke in the pointy end, as they can say no it's not safe.
Sorry, I'm sure that many will disagree, but HIRO requires maximum control.
However, back to the first point, it's poor technique and the controller should have told the pilot that certain exits are not available. But it could be a trainee or indeed a 'brain fart' which I believe we all have and as you get older they happen more frequently.
Anyway good night all. Be safe (or lucky).
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Originally Posted by tad
could have been a trainee
Brian - we never minded being told what to do by ATC and frequently were - it was just that they used to get it right - that's the difference.
161r - indeed, as you say, and I don't think I was ever 'told' where to vacate at LGW in all the years. Asked 'if able' many times (and normally made the first).
Nor in fact have I ever been 'told' at LHR, and if I had been and was too fast, I would have ignored it. So there.
Got to agree with HD on this one.
ATC are, inter alia, responsible for preventing collisions between aircraft and vehicles etc on the ground. How do they comply with this requirement if they allow aircraft to vacate where ever they wish and are able? Do they keep all the parallel taxiway clear of aircraft and vehicles just in case the pilot has a particular personal preference to vacate at a particular exit? Moreover at many airfields there are taxiways which are not suitable (wide enough or strong enough etc) for certain types of aircraft; again the ATCO must issue instructions. Agreed custom and practice may mean that certain types (of aircraft!) will generally vacate at the same points but that does not alter the fact that the controller is required to control. If the ATCO and pilot each happen to get what they want....well that keeps everybody happy!
However, it is not a free for all......BOAC!
Surely the ATCO makes a judgement based on experience and what he/she observes out of the window. If there is no potential ground conflict the ATCO may perhaps allow the pilot to fill their boots or offer 'first convenient right'. If there is a misjudgement by the ATCO and he/she instructs an aircraft to vacate at an unacceptable point (presumably due to speed), then the pilot has, as always, the opportunity to state that the particular clearance is not acceptable....whereupon the ATCO is required think of a plan B.
I also understand that this is why it is called a 'control' service as opposed to a FIS or air ground service. At airfields providing such services, most of the decisions are made entirely by the pilot.
ATC are, inter alia, responsible for preventing collisions between aircraft and vehicles etc on the ground. How do they comply with this requirement if they allow aircraft to vacate where ever they wish and are able? Do they keep all the parallel taxiway clear of aircraft and vehicles just in case the pilot has a particular personal preference to vacate at a particular exit? Moreover at many airfields there are taxiways which are not suitable (wide enough or strong enough etc) for certain types of aircraft; again the ATCO must issue instructions. Agreed custom and practice may mean that certain types (of aircraft!) will generally vacate at the same points but that does not alter the fact that the controller is required to control. If the ATCO and pilot each happen to get what they want....well that keeps everybody happy!
However, it is not a free for all......BOAC!
Surely the ATCO makes a judgement based on experience and what he/she observes out of the window. If there is no potential ground conflict the ATCO may perhaps allow the pilot to fill their boots or offer 'first convenient right'. If there is a misjudgement by the ATCO and he/she instructs an aircraft to vacate at an unacceptable point (presumably due to speed), then the pilot has, as always, the opportunity to state that the particular clearance is not acceptable....whereupon the ATCO is required think of a plan B.
I also understand that this is why it is called a 'control' service as opposed to a FIS or air ground service. At airfields providing such services, most of the decisions are made entirely by the pilot.
BOAC...no doubt people will continue to find exceptions which they feel prove their point. It is the nature of debate! ICAO Doc 4444 and CAA CAP493 offer pretty conclusive evidence!
As I mentioned, it is a CONTROL service that being the only way in which ATCOs can discharge their responsibilities. It is absurd to give the ATCO responsibility but no control!
As I mentioned, it is a CONTROL service that being the only way in which ATCOs can discharge their responsibilities. It is absurd to give the ATCO responsibility but no control!
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BOAC,
Having worked at an airfield that has to use the first exit to depart traffic from,then you are instructed which taxiway to vacate on quite clearly.This is after you have slowed to taxi speed obviously.
It doesn't stop pilots from trying to turn into the blocked taxiway(crap driving,failure to prevent a collision,ignoring ATC instruction
).
As far as the incident goes then the OJTI maybe didn't have sufficient time to try and stop the aircraft turning,or didn't see the aircraft try to turn on the RET.Perhaps they simply forgot the Cessna was there,as it's small and may not have been on their frequency.I'll stick with mistake.
I'm with HD as that's the way I've had to control for a long time due to airfield layout,and I haven't had a Golden Towbar award yet.
Having worked at an airfield that has to use the first exit to depart traffic from,then you are instructed which taxiway to vacate on quite clearly.This is after you have slowed to taxi speed obviously.
It doesn't stop pilots from trying to turn into the blocked taxiway(crap driving,failure to prevent a collision,ignoring ATC instruction
).As far as the incident goes then the OJTI maybe didn't have sufficient time to try and stop the aircraft turning,or didn't see the aircraft try to turn on the RET.Perhaps they simply forgot the Cessna was there,as it's small and may not have been on their frequency.I'll stick with mistake.
I'm with HD as that's the way I've had to control for a long time due to airfield layout,and I haven't had a Golden Towbar award yet.
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So much for working as a team?
BOAC, if you fly into the airport where I currently work, I will tell you where you should plan to vacate as it will be easier for your taxiing back to stand.
Of course you can use any exit you wish, but it may end up being more work for the ground controller and an additional ten minutes for you to get to stand.
As in the original posters query, there may be a valid reason why a controller will tell you to vacate at a specific exit, (such as a cessna blocking an exit you likely to use) its not guesswork, there is a reason why.
If the controller doesnt say anything, then by all means, choose any exit you wish.
BOAC, if you fly into the airport where I currently work, I will tell you where you should plan to vacate as it will be easier for your taxiing back to stand.
Of course you can use any exit you wish, but it may end up being more work for the ground controller and an additional ten minutes for you to get to stand.
As in the original posters query, there may be a valid reason why a controller will tell you to vacate at a specific exit, (such as a cessna blocking an exit you likely to use) its not guesswork, there is a reason why.
If the controller doesnt say anything, then by all means, choose any exit you wish.
BOAC....we must both have listened to too many politicians recently....I note your failure to answer my questions!!!
However, been to AMS many times.
I don't think 'throw a dyce' is letting ATC colleagues down, merely admitting that ATCOs are human and fallible!!
However, been to AMS many times.
I don't think 'throw a dyce' is letting ATC colleagues down, merely admitting that ATCOs are human and fallible!!
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Originally Posted by H49
I note your failure to answer my questions!!!
ASD - I have no issues with being told where to PLAN to vacate or being asked if I can (provided this is given in reasonable time - at the latest by 2 miles) and I can cope with being told where NOT to vacate as well. The issue is with the typical HD 'authoritarian' "I think ATC should have told the pilot which exit to use." - wrong idea. Advise, yes, ask, yes, 'block' an exit, yes, but 'tell' no. Let's just assume it was a mistake in wording?
Originally Posted by ASD
As in the original posters query, there may be a valid reason why a controller will tell you to vacate at a specific exit,
It seems as if some in ATC need to learn that while I'm sure all pilots will do their best to accommodate suitably given requests they should not expect it to be guaranteed.
To save this thread from an excruciating 'yes I did' and 'no I don't' death over many pages, it was pretty well all wrapped up by post #3. ASR submitted, FTC (hopefully) praised by company for saving a 'nasty', controller (hopefully) retrained. ENDEX.
Last edited by BOAC; 18th Mar 2011 at 10:38.
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As in the original posters query, there may be a valid reason why a controller will tell you to vacate at a specific exit,
- try reading the OP again?
- try reading the OP again?