Shannon ATC unqualified Supervisors

[crawler007]

Worried,

I was told yesterday that the Shannon ATC Centre is being supervised by NON ATC staff due to a dispute between supervisors and company Management. Is there no regulator to stop this sort of thing happening or is this normal practice in Ireland. Operational Staff have submitted a safety report through their union.

Crazy.

[The Jolly Roger]

Is the Station Managers position in Shannon a rated position?

If not the IAA can appoint the position to anyone who meets their position criteria.

I'm sure the Centre would not be silly enough to appoint non ATC staff to a position that requires a rating.

[p_perez]

Itīs sad to say, but in Spanish ACCīs non-rated AENA staff are in charge of operational decisions daily. And that is legal down here!

Saludos!

[Spitoon]

The question is, what skills are needed to do whatever job you are concerned about. The skills to supervise an ops room do not necessarily include holding a licence. If the people being called on to do the job have the necessary skills, then I can see no problem with it - whatever the underlying reason.

In practice, however, the skills required for such a role are often very poorly defined because people rely on the experience gained by the supervisor through many years working in the same environment.

No doubt the regulator is satisfied with the arrangements put in place by the service provider......

[The Jolly Roger]

I agree there Spitoon. The supervisors position is more about making common sense decisions based on your experience and operational and or unit experience. I've learned quickly enough that theres no real hard and fast rule to the job. It was never black and white.

I believe the issue was that the General Manager deputised as a supervisor for a shift. Cant see the problem here as I'm pretty sure the guy was sufficiently qualified to make decisions on behalf of the unit.

[max1]

Jolly Roger

The supervisors position is more about making common sense decisions based on your experience and operational and or unit experience.

So what is/was their experience?

I know that it doesn't take too long, ( around 6 months or longer) out of the ops room to have a distorted view of what is required or needed to make decisions. You tend to remember things differently, they think doing holding/vectoring for 2-3 hours is not that fatiguing. A controller should suck it up and keep going.
The best supervisor is the one that has to walk in your shoes, or is not seduced by management into believing that the game is forcing others into pushing themselves to the absolute limit.

[Rule3]

Mr.Jolly

You must have had a good teacher.

[The Jolly Roger]

Max1

So what is/was their experience?

It was the General Manager.......I'm pretty sure his job description covers it!

I know that it doesn't take too long, ( around 6 months or longer) out of the ops room to have a distorted view of what is required or needed to make decisions. You tend to remember things differently, they think doing holding/vectoring for 2-3 hours is not that fatiguing. A controller should suck it up and keep going.
The best supervisor is the one that has to walk in your shoes, or is not seduced by management into believing that the game is forcing others into pushing themselves to the absolute limit.

Incorrect....The BEST supervisor has a good understanding of unit operating procedures, hence his role as General Manager, and uses his staff (in Shannon its the co-ordinator), to help him carry out supervisory tasks. All too often in Shannon (and I'm sure this has changed with the appointment of some very good people as station managers, but, all too often the station manager unnecessarly got involved in decisions that could be made more efficiently by the co-ordinator. Any supervisor who thinks that management are duping him into believing that he should push controllers to their absolute limit arent worthy of the position.

Anyhow, this is all being blown out of proportion. Silly stuff really. No doubt the union has a hand in all this!

Rule 3....ONLY from the BEST!!!!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

During the 20+ years I spent at Heathrow Tower, only two Watch supervisors were qualified to work operational positions and one of them never did, although he had done some years earlier. During subsequent years various Watch Sups were posted in who had never been to Heathrow before and they were not required to hold validations. OK, they were all senior ATCOs but some had little experience of how the place functioned, but it didn't mean that they were not good supervisors. I believe that now, Heathrow Watch Managers have to hold validations.

At Terminal Control, West Drayton, during the 10 years I spent there, there were a number of sector, or "Group", supervisors who did not hold validations for the sectors they supervised.

It's not unusual; in fact in my days it was pretty well standard.

[divingduck]

Rule 3

Actually it was the thorough grounding that Jolly received before he he left Shannon and was de-skilled under your tuteledge

Howz life in the new flashpoint of the ME? Everything safe there?

BTW Max1...obviously never been to Shannon...holding/vectoring for 2-3 hours?

Extra BTW...hey Jolly...was it JR doing the Station Managing, or someone further up the foodchain?

[The Jolly Roger]

Most welcome Rule3..

DD...All choked up here thanks to ORBI restrictions!!!!!

I resisted the temptation to comment on the holding/vectoring bit!! I believe it was slightly above the Civil Servant and slightly below the Minister!

Rule 3...does this mean the tanks are back on the streets for the weekend????

[divingduck]

Jolly

Sorry about the restrictions...we only put them on Kuwait...they obviously passed the good news down the track.
Our southern radar is down so we have to use 40nm in trail both ways...Major pain, "but what to do?"
At least after last night we have RVSM.

Rule 3...remember don't get him wet and don't feed him drink after midnight

[Ginger Meggs]

The Jolly Roger

DD...All choked up here thanks to ORBI restrictions!!!!!

JR,

ORBI? What sort of restrictions could ORBI possibly put on you?

Perhaps you mean ORBB?

[The Jolly Roger]

Why yes of course Ginger!!! Fat fingers!!!!!

I was referring to your location tho!!!!!!!