Wikiposts
Search
ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Heathrow MLS

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 20th Jan 2011, 21:33
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 5116N00044W
Age: 76
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
how do you achieve appropriate separations with aircraft approaching from 4 stacks on curved approaches?
One of these days we will get a system which can do an acceptable job of approach sequencing in complex and variable environments (Honest Guv).
PeltonLevel is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2011, 21:52
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi Gonzo...

The MLS sensitive and critical areas, and the protected ranges, are the same as ILS at LHR
Out of interest, how has MLS been sold to LHR ATCOs as "an advantage" over ILS? If any...

NoD
NigelOnDraft is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2011, 22:13
  #23 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It was principally sold as allowing an increase in movements in Low Vis. MLS equipped aircraft would be first in line to land on the departure runway (TEAM) as the same protection as for ILS would not be required and MLS equipped aircraft might benefit from reduced delays in Low Viz conditions.

The above has failed to materialise and to date the MLS has offered no additional benefits over the ILS whatsoever from where I'm sitting.
Roffa is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2011, 08:22
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
<<One of these days we will get a system which can do an acceptable job of approach sequencing in complex and variable environments (Honest Guv).>>

Pray, explain further. The existing system achieves the max landing rate so how would you propose to better that?
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2011, 09:01
  #25 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The current system may achieve the maximum landing rate, but it doesn't always do so in the most environmentally friendly manner. Being environmentally friendly and saving fuel and carbon emissions are very important nowadays.

MLS though will have little to do with that. PRNAV and its more accurate stablemates of satellite based standards are the future, not MLS.

Last edited by Roffa; 21st Jan 2011 at 21:51.
Roffa is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2011, 22:18
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2,451
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
As I recall, the UK MLS trials work was split between Farnborough, who had responsibility for the technical signals aspects, and Bedford who looked at the operational (RNAV) aspects using a BAC 1-11 and HS 748.

IIRC the theoretical studies for MLS advantage over ILS at LHR (and MAN) considered reduced approach spacing due to lack of interference / co channel problems, and multiple approach path sequencing (environment).
Intermixing steep approaches (with different/inset thresholds - low noise) was considered for normal / STOL capable aircraft, so too for helicopters, which additionally could use variable / offset approach paths and angles without disturbing conventional traffic.
There were also advantages (mainly environmental) for missed approaches and departure routing.
All approaches were designed for Cat 3.

There were several MLS ground units; a semi permanent facility at Bedford with temporary installations at LGW, MAN, Berne, and Tehran in support of the British bid for the ICAO MLS standard.
safetypee is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2011, 08:10
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Out of interest, how has MLS been sold to LHR ATCOs as "an advantage" over ILS? If any...
I think we are still waiting to be 'sold it'.....

It's all very political it seems.

MLS was thought to require less protection, therefore less spacing and higher landing rate in LVPs. Turns out a few years ago that the premise was incorrect, and it requires (well, slightly less, but to all intents and purposes) the same protection as ILS.

To convince BA to install it, it was agreed at a high level that in LVPs MLS aircraft would be able to TEAM (i.e. land 6 an hour on departure runway - the fact that you no longer have to be past the LLZ antenna was touted as a benefit - however, if, as an ATCO, you are cutting things so close in LVPs that an extra 1500m or less is critical, then you've cut it too close anyway!). Therefore, BA can land 6 a/c an hour more than otherwise. BA shorthaul get a great benefit, BA overall and other airlines get a smaller benefit as they are able to use those 6 slots the MLS a/c would have used on the landing runway.

Of course, on both westerlies and easterlies, BA aircraft are possibly the worse you can have landing on the departure runway. Also, the 6 a/c are spread throughout the hour. with his/her eye always on the next lander, the deps controller is now going to be ultra-conservative to avoid things getting too close, and so departure rate drops through the floor. After a few hours of TEAM in LVPs, the airfield has significantly more aircraft arrivbing than departing, departure delay goes up dramatically, and those inbounds end up waiting ages to park on stand. Basically after a few hours the airfield breaks.

If we have to TEAM in LVPs, we should either limit it to 3 spread over the hour, or if the airfield is going to cope, either use ILS TEAM and allow us to pick each aircraft so it is best suited to land on the other runway, or in every hour, use 00-45 for departures, then 46-59 for arrivals. Far easier to manage.

But apparently BA have been promised this, so it's politically unacceptable to change the arrangement.
Heathrow Tower is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2011, 11:51
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kyeemagh
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
GLS is the future ... no protected area, serves numerous airports within the TMA, flight testing less onerous, and much more accurate (to the point of TDZ pavement failure)
Ivasrus is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.