Fair game?
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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Fair game?
In this world of competitive commerce, there are tactics, and then there are tactics. Southwest Airlines, the most profitable LCC in America, allegedly employ some highly unusual ones.
Several of the ATCO's I've spoken to have informed me that the above mentioned carrier regularly curries favor in various control facilities around the country by organizing pizza fests, 'donating' flat screen televisions for the break rooms, and so on.
I myself, have been vectored long distances, apparently to allow, or so it appears from where I'm sitting anyways, a SWA jet approach priority.
Any comments out there? Is all fair in LUV and war?
Several of the ATCO's I've spoken to have informed me that the above mentioned carrier regularly curries favor in various control facilities around the country by organizing pizza fests, 'donating' flat screen televisions for the break rooms, and so on.
I myself, have been vectored long distances, apparently to allow, or so it appears from where I'm sitting anyways, a SWA jet approach priority.
Any comments out there? Is all fair in LUV and war?
Join Date: Jan 2009
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dear bugg smasher
the stuff you wrote about has been going on for over 20 years...something you left out is the FLASH AND DASH program which allows atc'ers to ''jumpseat'' for famliarization....but they do it from the cabin and do it much more often than needed.
I think the concept is, if its a TIE, it goes to southwest.
j
the stuff you wrote about has been going on for over 20 years...something you left out is the FLASH AND DASH program which allows atc'ers to ''jumpseat'' for famliarization....but they do it from the cabin and do it much more often than needed.
I think the concept is, if its a TIE, it goes to southwest.
j
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It's a real sh!t when you are number two... When I sequence my approaches it seems like I always have a number 2, often a number 3 and a number 4...
There is very little opportunity for Approach/Director controllers to amend the sequence to favour one carrier over another, that is done much further out than on downwind.
I can state however, if I had a dead-heat, in the past (cause now it would be a sackable offense - now it's just a random choice
), I would pick the carrier who did offer favours (discounted travel rates, Christmas drink sponsorship etc) over one who didn't... But I certainly would not have ever considered making a definite number 1 number 2.
I would simply ask for or find out the facility phone number, ring and ask why it 'appears' you are always the statue and not the pigeon. You may find it very educational.
There is very little opportunity for Approach/Director controllers to amend the sequence to favour one carrier over another, that is done much further out than on downwind.
I can state however, if I had a dead-heat, in the past (cause now it would be a sackable offense - now it's just a random choice
), I would pick the carrier who did offer favours (discounted travel rates, Christmas drink sponsorship etc) over one who didn't... But I certainly would not have ever considered making a definite number 1 number 2.I would simply ask for or find out the facility phone number, ring and ask why it 'appears' you are always the statue and not the pigeon. You may find it very educational.
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I don't know anything about those "perks" mentioned but will admit SWA is my all-time favorite airline from a controller perspective. Maybe because of the aircraft type, company policy or both but they always climb and descend much faster than anyone else. This made my job easier, just got them climbing any nobdy else will catch them. They get to a level altitude faster than anyone. It's much easier to separate aircraft at a level altitude than those climbing/descending. Makes my job easier which brings me to your other point. Controllers will almost inevitably do what is easiest and that is to make #1 number 1 and the number 2 aircraft #2, etc.
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Get used to it.
According to a Southwest Captain I know, the airline has invested big bucks in PRNAV equipment, and expects the shortest routings because of same.
I expect he's correct.
The additional kit also allows larger payloads from restricted airports, as the engine out escape routes can be safely planned accordingly.
An extra 8,000 pounds ex-BUR to New York is no small change.
According to a Southwest Captain I know, the airline has invested big bucks in PRNAV equipment, and expects the shortest routings because of same.
I expect he's correct.
The additional kit also allows larger payloads from restricted airports, as the engine out escape routes can be safely planned accordingly.
An extra 8,000 pounds ex-BUR to New York is no small change.
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bugg smasher,
Try this.
Air Traffic Controller
Click "Play Game".
Change the sequence. e.g. : vector #4 behind #5.
When you've done it, call us back and tell us : "Controllers have fun in changing sequences !".
Don't forget this is just a game.
Real controllers "play" for real with real planes.
Believe me, a TV set is not worth changing a real sequence.
Technically, changing a sequence takes more time than let things be (#1 is and stays before #2 which is before #3, and so on...)
Controllers don't like to lose time because the fastest you're safe on the runway, the soonest they can lay back and have a nap.
If a company really tries to "buy" controllers, then I would say they should send their gifts to Haiti or to soldiers abroad. Their chance to become #1 in a sequence would probably be exactly the same.
I guess the rules are the same for US Federal controllers as for me (French civil servant) if they are caught recieving a "gift" from any company, they will probably lose their job, they risk a huge fine, maybe prison. That's what we call "Corruption".
Here again, a TV set isn't worth it.
Don't know if this "gift-rule" is the same for controllers who work for private ANSPs
but, anyway, real controllers don't change sequences with no real good (technical, safety,...) reason.
Works everywhere around the world.
Try this.
Air Traffic Controller
Click "Play Game".
Change the sequence. e.g. : vector #4 behind #5.
When you've done it, call us back and tell us : "Controllers have fun in changing sequences !".
Don't forget this is just a game.
Real controllers "play" for real with real planes.
Believe me, a TV set is not worth changing a real sequence.
Technically, changing a sequence takes more time than let things be (#1 is and stays before #2 which is before #3, and so on...)
Controllers don't like to lose time because the fastest you're safe on the runway, the soonest they can lay back and have a nap.
If a company really tries to "buy" controllers, then I would say they should send their gifts to Haiti or to soldiers abroad. Their chance to become #1 in a sequence would probably be exactly the same.
I guess the rules are the same for US Federal controllers as for me (French civil servant) if they are caught recieving a "gift" from any company, they will probably lose their job, they risk a huge fine, maybe prison. That's what we call "Corruption".
Here again, a TV set isn't worth it.
Don't know if this "gift-rule" is the same for controllers who work for private ANSPs
but, anyway, real controllers don't change sequences with no real good (technical, safety,...) reason.Works everywhere around the world.
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Good relations between an airline in ATC never hurted anyone and makes life easier. A TV for the rest room or a few free tickets for the raffle for the Christmas party, where is the problem ? This ain't personal to one person , it showing appreciation to a group. Other groups at airports receive the same.
Getting priority over another one ? too complicated and will bite you back as a controller.As said before nobody does this. The percieve feeling of being by-passed as a pilot is not because of you, but because it makes our life eeasier. Type of a/c and company policy ( e.g. fast climbs and descents) may alter sequence depending on a lot of factors .But giving systematically year long priority to one airline over another ? no way. Too complicated.
Getting priority over another one ? too complicated and will bite you back as a controller.As said before nobody does this. The percieve feeling of being by-passed as a pilot is not because of you, but because it makes our life eeasier. Type of a/c and company policy ( e.g. fast climbs and descents) may alter sequence depending on a lot of factors .But giving systematically year long priority to one airline over another ? no way. Too complicated.
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and the chocolates routes were created courtesy Swissair . ( a direct BLM for the inbounds Geneva at ( late) times when all the military were closed and hardly any traffic opposite. A Christmas we received a box of Swiss chocolates in the Ops room as a thank you.
It is sad to see that both Dan Air and Swissair no longer exist today.
It is sad to see that both Dan Air and Swissair no longer exist today.
