Dubai Approach, what is going on?
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Of course improvements are being introduced but i`m sure you`ve been here long enough to know just how long it takes to get regulatory approval for any major changes to be granted and it`ll be another six months before the next significant step.
However when Dubai make improvements it seems that restrictions from other units are introduced to negate them. It was a rather strange co-incidence that the week that DXB brought in reduced landing and departure separations the spacing required through the gates increased to 10 miles in trail which causes significant delays for the morning Ranbi outbounds. Don`t even mention Muscat flow control.
Any improvements at DXB have to be linked to improvements in procedures further down the line as easy as it is for ACC to give DXB more inbounds than we can handle it is equally easy for DXB to give ACC more outbounds than they can deal with. We try to arrange our outbound flow to match your limits and you have to match our limits, its just that simple.
Brian, she`s ex-KK
However when Dubai make improvements it seems that restrictions from other units are introduced to negate them. It was a rather strange co-incidence that the week that DXB brought in reduced landing and departure separations the spacing required through the gates increased to 10 miles in trail which causes significant delays for the morning Ranbi outbounds. Don`t even mention Muscat flow control.
Any improvements at DXB have to be linked to improvements in procedures further down the line as easy as it is for ACC to give DXB more inbounds than we can handle it is equally easy for DXB to give ACC more outbounds than they can deal with. We try to arrange our outbound flow to match your limits and you have to match our limits, its just that simple.
Brian, she`s ex-KK
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There is a link to a decent and detailed presentation that sets out some of the challenges and solutions in Mid East airspace. Its a regional and political issue - a mini version of the European problem. A lot of people are working the problems to find solutions. Its neither an atco nor a pilot generated problem.
This is a good web site to follow and understand - See this blog and click the link that says "here" CANSO - The Global Voice of ATM
Katie
This is a good web site to follow and understand - See this blog and click the link that says "here" CANSO - The Global Voice of ATM
Katie
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Non aviation use of airspace>>>
Restrictions around naval bases, army bases, palaces, nuclear powerstations, for example, and larger areas used for practice missile firing, then of course the. war zone issue.
Oh and very tall buildings like the Burj, which impact use of airspace.
Restrictions around naval bases, army bases, palaces, nuclear powerstations, for example, and larger areas used for practice missile firing, then of course the. war zone issue.
Oh and very tall buildings like the Burj, which impact use of airspace.
I enjoyed the vectors yesterday afternoon. The vis was fantastic and got to see parts of the UAE l hadn't seen before 
It looked exactly like ALL the parts l have seen before!
halas
It looked exactly like ALL the parts l have seen before!
halas
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It was a rather strange co-incidence that the week that DXB brought in reduced landing and departure separations the spacing required through the gates increased to 10 miles in trail which causes significant delays for the morning Ranbi outbounds.
Secondly, unless I'm wrong, the reduced landing spacing requirements (if you can call them "requirements"), have been in place for the past 9 months on a trial basis. They've only mae them permanent in the last AIP amendment.
Yeah, regulatory approval takes time. In fact, thats good. At least Dubai are applying for approval rather than just going ahead and implementing the changes. (Which seem to be the norm around some parts!). But whats the story with the AMAN? One minute its all go, the next its halted again. As I said, its not perfect but its an attempt to start something right!
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Kiwitraveller
The Burj is, or should be, covered by what is referred to as Annex 14 surfaces. The others referred to: naval bases, army bases, palaces (yes, I know the Sharjah Sheikh's gets in the way of Dubai), nuclear powerstations, for example, and larger areas used for practice missile firing, do not exactly take up an awful lot of terrain/airspace.
The war zone issue could be better handled.
One of the biggest constraints in the Mid East is the route structure via Saudi and the kink/bottle neck in Syria. When these and a few other associated countries actually get up to full modern standards and practices there will be a better traffic flow.
I see no mention of the neighbour to the north, Iran, and it's unilateral approach to ATC/ATM! This impacts on the war zone.
With proper implementation of Flow Control procedures, both inbounds, outbounds, and overflights together with fully integrated regional centres with associated handover coordination there is much that can be done before 'saturation point' is reached in 2015. The use of the term 'saturation point' in the CANSO blog is incorrect as that would mean every aircraft traveling throughout the region with Min Sep 24/7. Hardly likely!!
The CANSO report looks like ATC by Excel (Wonder who wrote it? It seems to have a certain Danish je ne c'est quoi). Unfortunately, with the GCAA ANS working in it's current fashion not much progress will be made except to continue to stumble along in the darkness.
Cheers
P.S. as mentioned before Dubai does a good job
The Burj is, or should be, covered by what is referred to as Annex 14 surfaces. The others referred to: naval bases, army bases, palaces (yes, I know the Sharjah Sheikh's gets in the way of Dubai), nuclear powerstations, for example, and larger areas used for practice missile firing, do not exactly take up an awful lot of terrain/airspace.
The war zone issue could be better handled.
One of the biggest constraints in the Mid East is the route structure via Saudi and the kink/bottle neck in Syria. When these and a few other associated countries actually get up to full modern standards and practices there will be a better traffic flow.
I see no mention of the neighbour to the north, Iran, and it's unilateral approach to ATC/ATM! This impacts on the war zone.
With proper implementation of Flow Control procedures, both inbounds, outbounds, and overflights together with fully integrated regional centres with associated handover coordination there is much that can be done before 'saturation point' is reached in 2015. The use of the term 'saturation point' in the CANSO blog is incorrect as that would mean every aircraft traveling throughout the region with Min Sep 24/7. Hardly likely!!
The CANSO report looks like ATC by Excel (Wonder who wrote it? It seems to have a certain Danish je ne c'est quoi). Unfortunately, with the GCAA ANS working in it's current fashion not much progress will be made except to continue to stumble along in the darkness.
Cheers
P.S. as mentioned before Dubai does a good job
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The Burj is definitely not covered by the Annex 14 surfaces.
That is why all the Dubai SIDs fly around it and why the radar vectoring altitude above it is 4000 ft
That is why all the Dubai SIDs fly around it and why the radar vectoring altitude above it is 4000 ft
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That's another blot on the GCAA copy book then. The GCAA in the shape of the Dane did do a bit of slight of hand stuff by subbing out to Dubai to do it's own Annex 14 stuff. A game of Danish 'pass the parcel'.
However, the Annex 14 buck does actually stop with the GCAA.
As has been mentioned before the Dane is not PANS OPs qualified and the GCAA regulations were rewritten to allow him to exercise his 'skill' at this 'Black Art'.
He played the same "pass the parcel' game when he introduced the first eastbound flow rate into Muscat FIR getting Dubai to police the departure rate rather than install a proper flow unit at the ACC.
Cheers
The Burj is definitely not covered by the Annex 14 surfaces.
That is why all the Dubai SIDs fly around it and why the radar vectoring altitude above it is 4000 ft
That is why all the Dubai SIDs fly around it and why the radar vectoring altitude above it is 4000 ft
However, the Annex 14 buck does actually stop with the GCAA.
As has been mentioned before the Dane is not PANS OPs qualified and the GCAA regulations were rewritten to allow him to exercise his 'skill' at this 'Black Art'.
He played the same "pass the parcel' game when he introduced the first eastbound flow rate into Muscat FIR getting Dubai to police the departure rate rather than install a proper flow unit at the ACC.
Cheers
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 18th Nov 2010 at 12:11.
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The comments re: Departure Flows show the typical TMA mentality of the world ending at 30 miles. The Muscat flow is for a number of reasons including that those aircraft are transiting into procedural airspace. The Ranbi flow requirements are not for the Ranbi departures but are to give the ACC a fighting chance to get the rest of the traffic that does not originate in Dubai into the mix. AUH departures, OBBI arrivals descending on top, OTBD and Al Udeid descending on top and crossing all going out through the same single point at Balus as well as AUH arrivals from Tehran crossing the lot.
It is a complete waste of time for any of the controllers from various units to blame the other. Everyone is playing to their rules and noone is making it easy for themselves while making iot hard for the next guy on purpose. The problems are the same that are found throughout the whole reigon not just in Aviation.
It is a complete waste of time for any of the controllers from various units to blame the other. Everyone is playing to their rules and noone is making it easy for themselves while making iot hard for the next guy on purpose. The problems are the same that are found throughout the whole reigon not just in Aviation.
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Maybe it's about time you read the LOA then, which STILL states that the outbound flow is 5 miles and parallel headings OK - without coordination, hence the 3 times daily calls to impose "exceptional" flow control measures on Dubai outbounds. 
Of course, the LOA could be re-negotiated to limit Dubai outbounds due to lack of the concerned UAE sector's capacity but that is politically unacceptable and the blame would then shift down the road - also politically unacceptable.
Not strange at all my friend. The ACC has been telling OMDB to put 10nm in trail spacing between departures at RANBI for as long as I can remember. Besides 10nm is reasonable seen as we find ourselves having 20+ airplanes on frequency during the morning rush on Central. Not kosher!!!
Of course, the LOA could be re-negotiated to limit Dubai outbounds due to lack of the concerned UAE sector's capacity but that is politically unacceptable and the blame would then shift down the road - also politically unacceptable.
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Choclit, we`re both half right, ex KK n SS.
I believe she may have been responsible one Saturday evening for a comment on GND at KK "Easy***, just go down on Juliet....."
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No she never worked in the tower, radar only at EGKK. Tower at EGSS.
very interesting that the airspace problems at Dubai are raised every couple of years. It is a crock of sh*t, but nothing will change until the Dubai and Abu Dhabi governments start to love each other!!!
For instance I can never understand why the UAE centre and Dubai approach are not in the same centre. Why don't dubai approach control the holds at low level, like EGLL, EGKK and EGSS. A well organised hold is so much better than vectors all over the sky. FLOW CONTROL, now there is an idea.
Departure runway slots?????
All these ideas have been mentioned in the past, with all the good woldwide ex pat experience in both places it should be one of the best ATC systems in the world!!! Why isn't it???
Ask the great Dane.
very interesting that the airspace problems at Dubai are raised every couple of years. It is a crock of sh*t, but nothing will change until the Dubai and Abu Dhabi governments start to love each other!!!
For instance I can never understand why the UAE centre and Dubai approach are not in the same centre. Why don't dubai approach control the holds at low level, like EGLL, EGKK and EGSS. A well organised hold is so much better than vectors all over the sky. FLOW CONTROL, now there is an idea.
Departure runway slots?????
All these ideas have been mentioned in the past, with all the good woldwide ex pat experience in both places it should be one of the best ATC systems in the world!!! Why isn't it???
Ask the great Dane.
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Nimmer
The idea of releasing traffic into the HOLDs as in the EGLL, EGKK, EGSS, procedures was put to the notso great Dane. To mention it a second time was instant dismissal. Neither he, nor his training office sidekick of the time, understood the concept nor were they interested in it as they knew best with their collective experience from, respectively Copenhagen and J'burg in '89 and '92.
The reason that the ACC and OMDB APP are still separate entities is that Dubai were smart enough to understand the notso great Dane for what he was and they declined to be drawn into his empire building in a subordinate role. After all, their ATM planners are good at their job whilst the Dane is not.
As you say, with all the good worldwide ex pat experience in both places it should be one of the best ATC systems in the world!!! The notso great Dane and his muppet the DANS are the stumbling block to progress.
If anyone at the ACC did so it would be an automatic departure on the next available Etihad flight.
The idea of releasing traffic into the HOLDs as in the EGLL, EGKK, EGSS, procedures was put to the notso great Dane. To mention it a second time was instant dismissal. Neither he, nor his training office sidekick of the time, understood the concept nor were they interested in it as they knew best with their collective experience from, respectively Copenhagen and J'burg in '89 and '92.
The reason that the ACC and OMDB APP are still separate entities is that Dubai were smart enough to understand the notso great Dane for what he was and they declined to be drawn into his empire building in a subordinate role. After all, their ATM planners are good at their job whilst the Dane is not.
As you say, with all the good worldwide ex pat experience in both places it should be one of the best ATC systems in the world!!! The notso great Dane and his muppet the DANS are the stumbling block to progress.
Ask the great Dane
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 20th Nov 2010 at 12:07.