Overtaken for take-off at CDG?
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BrATCO
Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?
No! It's a help to manage the flow..not the planes individually in the sequence..it doesn't decide anything..it gives an overview of what is arriving and proposes a sequence based on computing with a lots of variables, but still not enough to do the controller's sequencing job.
If you never worked in Paris, don't spread false facts
I don't talk about Oceanic Clearance because I don't know anything about it
For the pilots flying jets into CDG, just count how many AirFrance's CityJet/Regional/Britair RJ85/F100/CRJ1 will overtake you..I doubt there'll be a lot
Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?
No! It's a help to manage the flow..not the planes individually in the sequence..it doesn't decide anything..it gives an overview of what is arriving and proposes a sequence based on computing with a lots of variables, but still not enough to do the controller's sequencing job.
If you never worked in Paris, don't spread false facts
I don't talk about Oceanic Clearance because I don't know anything about it For the pilots flying jets into CDG, just count how many AirFrance's CityJet/Regional/Britair RJ85/F100/CRJ1 will overtake you..I doubt there'll be a lot
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salzkorn and Makosa,
I didn't want to insult you by saying the machine makes your job. That was not what I meant. Just wished to understand.
Some forein pilots complain about being overtaken by French companies in France but that's not the way we (you and me) were taught to work.
I thought that, even though you make the sequencing, the fact that a machine "helps" you would lighten up a bit the situation (and our perception of it).
And, as I'm interested in how controllers work around my sectors, I put it in a question.
Sorry if my question hurt you (and some others). I think the concept of the machine which will efficiently replace us in doing the sequencings (that most of the time begin over France entry points for destination Paris) is still in its creator's mother's belly.
Another question : does sometimes Paris ACC ask for last (or so) minute changes in your departure sequences for any reason ? I ask the question because my radar image is filtered below FL205 over Paris TMA. I can't see what happens below.
Regarding the oceanic clearances, we don't decide anything. The clearance comes from Shanwick and we have to comply with it (+ or - 2 mn over the entry point). The machine helps us fitting that by calculating the time over entry point (usually, doesn't work that well because of directs) and the cleared level. As long as everything is not in order, the tag on the radar track and a mini-strip are litten in blue on the screens. When everything is in order, we are allowed to "unlock" the clearance limit and transfert the flight to Shanwick HF.
We do all we can to comply with the clearance and we must co-ordinate (ie: get a new clearance) any change.
As you see, we do the job, but we don't decide. I wondered if it is (kind of) the same for Paris ACC when they sequence your arrivals.
I didn't want to insult you by saying the machine makes your job. That was not what I meant. Just wished to understand.
Some forein pilots complain about being overtaken by French companies in France but that's not the way we (you and me) were taught to work.
I thought that, even though you make the sequencing, the fact that a machine "helps" you would lighten up a bit the situation (and our perception of it).
And, as I'm interested in how controllers work around my sectors, I put it in a question.
Sorry if my question hurt you (and some others). I think the concept of the machine which will efficiently replace us in doing the sequencings (that most of the time begin over France entry points for destination Paris) is still in its creator's mother's belly.
Another question : does sometimes Paris ACC ask for last (or so) minute changes in your departure sequences for any reason ? I ask the question because my radar image is filtered below FL205 over Paris TMA. I can't see what happens below.
Regarding the oceanic clearances, we don't decide anything. The clearance comes from Shanwick and we have to comply with it (+ or - 2 mn over the entry point). The machine helps us fitting that by calculating the time over entry point (usually, doesn't work that well because of directs) and the cleared level. As long as everything is not in order, the tag on the radar track and a mini-strip are litten in blue on the screens. When everything is in order, we are allowed to "unlock" the clearance limit and transfert the flight to Shanwick HF.
We do all we can to comply with the clearance and we must co-ordinate (ie: get a new clearance) any change.
As you see, we do the job, but we don't decide. I wondered if it is (kind of) the same for Paris ACC when they sequence your arrivals.
Last edited by BrATCO; 3rd Sep 2010 at 18:44.
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For the pilots flying jets into CDG, just count how many AirFrance's CityJet/Regional/Britair RJ85/F100/CRJ1 will overtake you..I doubt there'll be a lot
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Has an RJ ever overtaken anything?!
But then you only have to look at the origen of manufacturer the Best of Ole boy!!
But it probably has its uses in shortfield and steep approach, it flys 95 geezers into the only airport anywhere near to city of Londonn.
"salzkorn............ they seem to fit in alright from what i hear and as 75% of the guys are hour building and dont pay the fuel, who cares if its 30 minutes late really.
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'Twas just a tongue in cheek comment wheelbarrow, I flew it for a few years.
Nowt wrong with 300kts, the Q limit on some was 305.
Nowt wrong with 300kts, the Q limit on some was 305.
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A few years ago I had both BA and AF taxying for Paris. AF had a slot 5 mins ahead of BA but was moving like a hearse with BA behind. "I can take an intersection" said BA so I lined him up aiming to utilise the -5 on his slot. "But I have the first slot" said AF. "At the end line up" he was told (you could do that then and he was still some way away from the threshold.) I fired the BA off, much to his amusement and AF still complaining and still taxying. As soon as he got to the end I fired AF off, still complaining. I said you have departed with no delay, exactly on your slot. He still complained until a little voice said "I'll wager £10 who lands first at Paris"
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Well, if nationality ever was a factor anywhere, I'd like to think it is now firmly a thing of the past.
Thank you for all replies. Thanks grizz for your kind message, as well as HEATHROW DIRECTOR and others for all your valuable operational insight.
Thank you for all replies. Thanks grizz for your kind message, as well as HEATHROW DIRECTOR and others for all your valuable operational insight.
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windowjob's narration reminds me of a story I heard many years ago at LGW when WX at LHR were pretty bad and LGW took the overflow. This may be an urban legend but I still like it!
An SAA 747 and a Nigeria Airways 747 were parked next to each other on the apron. The WT captain was continually bleating about being parked next to a 'symbol of racism and colonialism' and asked to be moved. When the weather improved and flights were cleared for departure SAA got an earlier slot, which gave rise to a further tirade from Capt. Adeugbo. Eventually he got his clearance and a voice came over the air '... and now f*** off and annoy someone else'.
An SAA 747 and a Nigeria Airways 747 were parked next to each other on the apron. The WT captain was continually bleating about being parked next to a 'symbol of racism and colonialism' and asked to be moved. When the weather improved and flights were cleared for departure SAA got an earlier slot, which gave rise to a further tirade from Capt. Adeugbo. Eventually he got his clearance and a voice came over the air '... and now f*** off and annoy someone else'.
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sequence change
"Another question from BrATCO : does sometimes Paris ACC ask for last (or so) minute changes in your departure sequences for any reason ? I ask the question because my radar image is filtered below FL205 over Paris TMA. I can't see what happens below."
First there is even never call from the departure sector(s) of the approach to the tower(s) controllers...so to imagine that someone in the ACC request a change in the dep. sequence..(for what reason ?) he should have to work full time for that purpose and got an A-SMGCS display in front of him (No DMAN in use)...not sure that Paris ACC will agree for this additional work...
First there is even never call from the departure sector(s) of the approach to the tower(s) controllers...so to imagine that someone in the ACC request a change in the dep. sequence..(for what reason ?) he should have to work full time for that purpose and got an A-SMGCS display in front of him (No DMAN in use)...not sure that Paris ACC will agree for this additional work...
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A7700,
Thank you.
When I worked on a (little-medium) field, APP and TWR controllers were shoulder to shoulder. Co-ordinations were non-stop. APP could ask TWR for changes even just before departure (posibility to backtrack if needed by sequence) sort of local FMP. The reason was, for exemple, departure of 2 or 3 ILS trainings with different speeds.
Departures from CDG/ORY to the west diverge only above FL290, when speeds can't be kept anymore. So I thought that ACC could have asked for "things" which APP could have passed to the TWR.
I understand this is not possible on a field the size of CDG.
Different fields/sectors, different methods.
Hence my question.
Thank you also for now I know a bit more about A-SMGCS and DMAN (had to google that...
).
Thank you.
When I worked on a (little-medium) field, APP and TWR controllers were shoulder to shoulder. Co-ordinations were non-stop. APP could ask TWR for changes even just before departure (posibility to backtrack if needed by sequence) sort of local FMP. The reason was, for exemple, departure of 2 or 3 ILS trainings with different speeds.
Departures from CDG/ORY to the west diverge only above FL290, when speeds can't be kept anymore. So I thought that ACC could have asked for "things" which APP could have passed to the TWR.
I understand this is not possible on a field the size of CDG.
Different fields/sectors, different methods.
Hence my question.
Thank you also for now I know a bit more about A-SMGCS and DMAN (had to google that...
).
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Yes it happens all the time - do they get a kick back?
Yes was No. 2 for T/O, then three AF flight given T/O CLRN at Ints in front of us. So told the young lady that if not CLRD next would have to return to the gate for fuel uplift. A unnessary 45 min wait so that the local carriers could be given preferential treatment.
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Capt Groper,
A bit more details ?
What time was it ?
What were their types of aircraft ?
What were their destinations ?
What were their SIDs ?
What were their CTOTs ?
What were yours ?
What was happening on the other departure runway ?
Have you heard about flight plan adherence lately ?
A bit more details ?
What time was it ?
What were their types of aircraft ?
What were their destinations ?
What were their SIDs ?
What were their CTOTs ?
What were yours ?
What was happening on the other departure runway ?
Have you heard about flight plan adherence lately ?
Last edited by BrATCO; 1st Oct 2010 at 11:56.
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As shown by this topic it's always difficult to make everybody happy. And I would also add that in air traffic control, it appears to me that it's almost impossible to make somebody happy.
I was discussing a few days ago with a flight officer of the major french airline. We were talking about ATC and he said the following thing:
the problem with french air traffic controllers is that they don't give us priority and that's the problem because:
- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW
- in Spain, that's Iberia that is privileged
so since the system is unfair, we should have priority in France.
By reading the topic I realized that we are being criticized from french pilots and for foreign pilot for exactly opposite reasons.
So I'm sorry pilots but we have no reasons at all to privilege french airlines, maybe sometimes you have the impression that some flights are privileged but that's only for ATC reasons and not because of their nationality.
I had the same discussion during a sequence of 2 flights, the 1rs traffic (major company) was a little bit slower than the 2nd (sister company of the 1rs one's). So I decided to reduce the n°2 mach number. I had this reply: "no because you are always privileging the major company". So I decided to try to increase the mach number of the first one. Guess the answer? "we don't want to change, you are always disfavouring us"
Darn...
Nock
I was discussing a few days ago with a flight officer of the major french airline. We were talking about ATC and he said the following thing:
the problem with french air traffic controllers is that they don't give us priority and that's the problem because:
- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW
- in Spain, that's Iberia that is privileged
so since the system is unfair, we should have priority in France.
By reading the topic I realized that we are being criticized from french pilots and for foreign pilot for exactly opposite reasons.
So I'm sorry pilots but we have no reasons at all to privilege french airlines, maybe sometimes you have the impression that some flights are privileged but that's only for ATC reasons and not because of their nationality.
I had the same discussion during a sequence of 2 flights, the 1rs traffic (major company) was a little bit slower than the 2nd (sister company of the 1rs one's). So I decided to reduce the n°2 mach number. I had this reply: "no because you are always privileging the major company". So I decided to try to increase the mach number of the first one. Guess the answer? "we don't want to change, you are always disfavouring us"
Darn...
Nock
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Reply to BrATCO
I don’t want to get into an argument, but if you think that ATC were justifiable then they could have been more verbally helpful in informing their intentions. Keep everybody in the loop.
RWY 26R departure to east. No. 2 at the hold at approx 1130 local time.
Then three AF regional jets taxi down from terminal and take off from int. in front of me. Even the last had pushed back whilst we had already taxied to the holding pt.
All small size A320 and smaller.
No idea of their destinations or CTOTs.
We did not have a CTOT.
Northerly RWYs in use for T/O too.
After the third regional jet taking off call to ATC to confirm that we were READY (again). Unfortunately the reply was not informative of our posn in queue so had to say that 2 + another 3 A/C had already departed so how long would we be waiting?
Now 45 mins from P/B and all taxi fuel used. (2.4T/hr)
Yes I have heard of Flt Plan adherence, and we also wished to adhere to our flight plan too.
RWY 26R departure to east. No. 2 at the hold at approx 1130 local time.
Then three AF regional jets taxi down from terminal and take off from int. in front of me. Even the last had pushed back whilst we had already taxied to the holding pt.
All small size A320 and smaller.
No idea of their destinations or CTOTs.
We did not have a CTOT.
Northerly RWYs in use for T/O too.
After the third regional jet taking off call to ATC to confirm that we were READY (again). Unfortunately the reply was not informative of our posn in queue so had to say that 2 + another 3 A/C had already departed so how long would we be waiting?
Now 45 mins from P/B and all taxi fuel used. (2.4T/hr)
Yes I have heard of Flt Plan adherence, and we also wished to adhere to our flight plan too.
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Answer to Capt Groper
I understand your sadness.
I won't argue, just explain my thoughts. Stand to be (gently ?) corrected for anyone.
I do agree with you, more information would certainly have removed some of your resentment.
However, I know CDG is sometimes a bit busy and providing the full image to every departing plane must be impossible.
I'm sure they had good reasons to do so. I guess depending on your SID and the other one's.
Or maybe the planes who overtook you had CTOTs when you didn't (irony of the system ?
)
As already said, CDG is the AF hub. There's a big risk some of them are before you. (Believe me, they complain as well when you're before them)
Regarding the full image, you said they were A320s or smaller. I don't know your type of ACFT and your dest. Maybe, on the average, they would have lost more than you : losing 500 kils on a 400 Nm sector is worse than losing a ton on a "half-around-the-world" trip. (one more of my distorted thoughts ?)
I don't know if the controller had time to think about that anyway.
Once, as I worked in an TWR/APP, I had 12 ACFT in the pattern + 3 IFR arrivals + 6 holding to depart. One pilot on the holding point told me that he was shutting his engines off, that he would need 5 mins to start them up again. Thanks me to call him back when I'm ready...
It was some time ago, I still remember it.
Sometimes, things hit the fan, that's not when we've got time to explain or argue...
Just try and trust us : when someone is before you, anywhere in France, that's not because of his company.
Regards.
I won't argue, just explain my thoughts. Stand to be (gently ?) corrected for anyone.
I do agree with you, more information would certainly have removed some of your resentment.
However, I know CDG is sometimes a bit busy and providing the full image to every departing plane must be impossible.
I'm sure they had good reasons to do so. I guess depending on your SID and the other one's.
Or maybe the planes who overtook you had CTOTs when you didn't (irony of the system ?
)As already said, CDG is the AF hub. There's a big risk some of them are before you. (Believe me, they complain as well when you're before them)
Regarding the full image, you said they were A320s or smaller. I don't know your type of ACFT and your dest. Maybe, on the average, they would have lost more than you : losing 500 kils on a 400 Nm sector is worse than losing a ton on a "half-around-the-world" trip. (one more of my distorted thoughts ?)
I don't know if the controller had time to think about that anyway.
Once, as I worked in an TWR/APP, I had 12 ACFT in the pattern + 3 IFR arrivals + 6 holding to depart. One pilot on the holding point told me that he was shutting his engines off, that he would need 5 mins to start them up again. Thanks me to call him back when I'm ready...
It was some time ago, I still remember it.
Sometimes, things hit the fan, that's not when we've got time to explain or argue...
Just try and trust us : when someone is before you, anywhere in France, that's not because of his company.
Regards.
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<<- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW>>
Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies.
Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies.
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<<- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW>>
Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies.
Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies.
It works for English ATCOs but also for French and Spanish! Surprisingly you didn't answer with such violence to the whole post...
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HD...
Thank you for that. After 40 years in the business and many countries and units I have always found that controllers have more important things to worry about that the name on the tail.
Pilots need to know more about the overall picture.
c
Thank you for that. After 40 years in the business and many countries and units I have always found that controllers have more important things to worry about that the name on the tail.
Pilots need to know more about the overall picture.
c
