Southampton Approach on Thursday
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 563
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From: USA
I'm quite surprised NATS Southampton should decide that services outside CAS aren't acceptable.
Provided by Bournemouth (to the west), and NATS Farnborough (to the East).
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 608
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From: UK
DFC
Just so I am clear in what you are saying: Are you seriously telling everyone (and there are people on here who believe things that are said) that VFR pilots should PLAN on going through CAS?
A zone transit is not a short-cut if it is the flight planned route.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
Are you seriously telling everyone (and there are people on here who believe things that are said) that VFR pilots should PLAN on going through CAS?
Too many pilots plan to fly in various Shaped routes avoiding every bit of class D and then when cleared through have no established plan to do so which leaves them heading into controleld airspace without any pre-planned heanding or route and opens up the posibility of wandering round inside the zone which I believe is worse than wandering round outside it.
Of course everyone should have a back-up plan for a delayed or refused clearance which could be simply hold until you get one and/or divert or both.
However, VFR flights are no different from IFR flights - they plan a route via the airspace they are permitted to fly in and where necessary request ATC clearance.
IFR flights legally require the exact same clearances as VFR flights for every bit of airspace they fly through. In most places the clearance is automatic for an IFR flight to reduce unnecessary R/T - in many other places it is not.
There is no real difference legally between an IFR flight from Heathrow to New York requesting a clearance to transit the Shanwick and Gander OCA's and a VFR flight requesting a transit of the Solent CTA. In both cases ATC can refuse. In both cases the pilots can come up with an alternative plan that enables the destination to be reached but costs lots more and in both cases it is an ATC reason for not getting a clearance. So the extra cost to the operator in both cases is a result of ATC capacity.
Pilots should not hesitate to plan reasonably via all the airspace classes that they are legally entitled to fly in. They should request a clearance when appropriate and they should have an alternative plan should a clearance not be available.
Can you please tell me where IFR or VFR is mentioned in the previous paragraph?
Can you tell me what is unreasonable from a safety or legal point about the same paragraph?
Disclaimer;
None of the above should be read as encouraging IFR or VFR flights to plan via airspaces where known restrictions or ATC actions cause frequent unnecassary delays if there is an alternative route that avoids the issue.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 563
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From: USA
Absolutely 100% they should have a plan that if appropriate to the route goes via controlled airspace class B,C,D,E,F and G. i.e. airspace available to VFR flights
Uncontrolled airspace almost does not exist over here. Everything is planned through controlled airspace.
We transition Delta and Charlie airspace regularly. Entering Bravo airspace is usually possible off-peak with priority given to aircraft landing and departing at the field.
which leaves them heading into controleld airspace without any pre-planned heanding or route and opens up the posibility of wandering round inside the zone which I believe is worse than wandering round outside it.
If in Charlie or Bravo, we can "request vectors to [place name]" and from that point we resume our own navigation. This is essential and encouraged as we can get vectored around all over the place.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Gonzo its common sense never mind Airmanship.
Also its normal to have 2-3 cunning plans for fuel managment as well.
All goes wel,l get the transits no need for a fuel stop.
Bit more head wind than expected fuel stop at egxx
Don't get the transit sod it when can get some lunch and fuel at egyy.
Although to be honest the pilots that seem to have the fore though to do as you say are usually the ones that have enough savy to hoof it on the fly and go with the flow with only a loose plan with 3-4 different options. Mind you these pilots are the ones that are more than likey to get zone transits cause they not only know what they are doing but also sound like they know what they are doing, so get the transit.
Also its normal to have 2-3 cunning plans for fuel managment as well.
All goes wel,l get the transits no need for a fuel stop.
Bit more head wind than expected fuel stop at egxx
Don't get the transit sod it when can get some lunch and fuel at egyy.
Although to be honest the pilots that seem to have the fore though to do as you say are usually the ones that have enough savy to hoof it on the fly and go with the flow with only a loose plan with 3-4 different options. Mind you these pilots are the ones that are more than likey to get zone transits cause they not only know what they are doing but also sound like they know what they are doing, so get the transit.
