Not responding on 121.5
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Not responding on 121.5
Hi,
we are not the busiest of sectors in the Europe, but do have plenty of complex situations (crosing traffic, climbing/descending etc...) on a relatively small portion of the sky. Our growing frustration is with the crews, not reacting to our calls, even on 121.5, which is becoming more and more dangerous. I mean, isn't it strange to them that there is complete radio silence?
we are not the busiest of sectors in the Europe, but do have plenty of complex situations (crosing traffic, climbing/descending etc...) on a relatively small portion of the sky. Our growing frustration is with the crews, not reacting to our calls, even on 121.5, which is becoming more and more dangerous. I mean, isn't it strange to them that there is complete radio silence?
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I don't understand it either. The other day they were calling for an a/c on the 121.5 for many minutes. So not only was this crew not listening out on the 121.5, they were probably also not paying attention where they were flying. If it gets quiet or if you pass a FIR boundry without being called by the controlers, you'd start questioning right??
Seems to me a very unnecesary problem...
I red some time ago an interview with an Air Force pilot who had intercepted an airplane they had lost contact with. Even flying in front of them he couldn't get their attention. They were too busy reading there newspapers. Eventualy passengers asked the cabin crew about the military jets flying next to them...
Seems to me a very unnecesary problem...
I red some time ago an interview with an Air Force pilot who had intercepted an airplane they had lost contact with. Even flying in front of them he couldn't get their attention. They were too busy reading there newspapers. Eventualy passengers asked the cabin crew about the military jets flying next to them...
Solution
FIR boundary waypoints on ND's should be coloured coded differently than white (the TO wpt) or green (the Next wpt). This would make it obvious that a frequency change should be expected here and help reduce loss comms situations such as this.
Last edited by Nightstop; 10th Aug 2010 at 15:09. Reason: "Next" wpt colour correction
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Part of the problem is that some pilots decide to use 121.5 for chat etc. When this happens, we tend to turn the volume down, so that we don't miss calls on the main frequency. However, fatigue can cause missed calls, and other reasons too. And often the 2nd box isn't turned back up in volume, so the pilots don't hear the call on it.
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we tend to turn the volume down, so that we don't miss calls on the main frequency. ......... often the 2nd box isn't turned back up in volume, so the pilots don't hear the call on it.
How irresponsible. Thank goodness you weren't the only aircraft which might have been able to contact me when I really needed help. Many thanks yet again to the Emirates Airbus Flight Crew who DIDN'T turn the volume down / switch off etc. It may be four years ago now but I will always be grateful to you. 
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Sorry DX, but when you're above FL200 over France and COM2 is set to 121.5 then you are often hearing "practice pan etc". In the UK, that's legal, over France, we are not obliged to listen to "practice Pan" calls in the UK.
However, we are obliged to listen to the primary VHF frequency for our own calls.
Sadly, 121.5 is miss used by so called professional crews as well.
Yes, we do try and remember to turn COM2 back up but we are also human.
However, we are obliged to listen to the primary VHF frequency for our own calls.
Sadly, 121.5 is miss used by so called professional crews as well.
Yes, we do try and remember to turn COM2 back up but we are also human.
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Maybe not Reddo, but it was an Emirates Airbus crew at FL370 way out over continental Europe which was able to make contact with me.
I agree it must be irritating to be able to hear the UK practice Pan calls and yes, I do know you are human and things can be missed for a little while. As you know I have also been subjected to the gross misuse of 121.5 by so-called professional crews who really ARE a disgrace to the profession. I just felt that the tone of the post was rather flippant and made me wonder if my predicament might have been curtailed sooner if someone else (apart from the person at Humberside whom I couldn't hear) had also been listening. You also know I appreciate the professionalism of most crews.
I agree it must be irritating to be able to hear the UK practice Pan calls and yes, I do know you are human and things can be missed for a little while. As you know I have also been subjected to the gross misuse of 121.5 by so-called professional crews who really ARE a disgrace to the profession. I just felt that the tone of the post was rather flippant and made me wonder if my predicament might have been curtailed sooner if someone else (apart from the person at Humberside whom I couldn't hear) had also been listening. You also know I appreciate the professionalism of most crews.
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How irresponsible.
If I am flying in a Cessna 152 with a nice intercom and a noise canceling headset it is no problem to listen to 2 frequencies at one time but in a Boeing this is virtually impossible.
So the irresponsible ones are the ones abusing 121.5
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Can I ask the pilots what your SOP's say regarding 121.5. I understand your frustrations with chat on what is an emergency frequency which as we all know, should be used for just that but it is clear that some pilots do not use it for the purpose it was intended. Having experienced the frustration many times of calling on 121.5 with no response,I would assume that all airlines would follow the same, (what should be), strict code for this frequency. Perhaps a different frequency should be used for practice pans and airlines abusing the frequency be penalised in some form. Just a thought..............
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Our SOP is that 121.5 is to be monitored on COM 2 when not using it for speaking to the handling agent, obtaining the ATIS or listening to a VOLMET. I do turn the volume slightly down compared to the primary frequency on COM 1.
I don't have the Jeps handy at home, however, over Europe (France etc) we need to monitor 121.5, over the UK, ironically, we don't because of Mil DDD. (Please excuse me if I have the name wrong, I have met the folks a few times, great blokes with fantastic kit)
I don't have the Jeps handy at home, however, over Europe (France etc) we need to monitor 121.5, over the UK, ironically, we don't because of Mil DDD. (Please excuse me if I have the name wrong, I have met the folks a few times, great blokes with fantastic kit)
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Policy is that 121.5 is monitored on the other radio unless using it to obtain the ATIS for destination, talk to handling / ops or getting the volmet.
However, I can guarantee that when "The other day they were calling for an a/c on the 121.5 for many minutes" is encountered we deselect that radio on the intercom until we find that peace reigns.
I am sure that everyone else within 250nm (except the one you are calling) is doing the same.
Problem is that you do that for 10 minutes and for 5 of those minutes you are crossing with some airfirce base in Germany calling something else and then we have to get the ATIS and then we are 50nm south east of Paris and in range of the "Practice Pan brigade" and guess what, we end up flying from Nice to London trying to listen on 121.5 but finding that it is impossible due to the constant chatter from ground stations
I use "chatter" to include ACC's trying to contact silent aircraft, airfirce bases doing radio checks etc because it is a reason for deselecting 121.5 since when PNF (PM) the primary outside communication task is to monitor and respond to calls on the ACC/APP/TWR frequency. Monitoring 121.5 is secondary and can't be allowed to hamper the first.
Have you ever considered the posibility that they can't hear you on the ACC frequency because they are hearing transmissions from a ground station other than you on 121.5 and when you call on 121.5 this other ground station is blocking you?
What is the DOC of your 121.5 at say 40,000ft and how many other ground stations overlap that DOC - lots and lots if you are in central Europe - and most of them can not hear the other's transmissions and so don't know (or in the UK case 'care') if thay are blocking your transmissions.
So before you go blaming the aircrew, remember that we hear every idiotic waaaaaaaassssssssuuuuuuupppppppppp on 121.5 with hundreds of miles, we hear every ground station within a similar distance - but you don't and therefore are not best placed to decide if you transmission has nay chance of success.
There are also plenty of places in Europe where VHF coverage is poor - parts of Italy fro example - hard to believe that between Corsica and Rome the coverage at 300+ can often be quite poor.
No point in giving me the xxx123 we have called you several times. If I had heard you I would have responded!! We don't intentionally ignore direct clearances / short cuts!!
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On a side note - I never adjust the volume of the radio other than to make it comfortable i.e. I never turn it down fully. If I don't want to hear what is going on I will de-select it on the intercom. I have seen so many pilots turn down the volume and then forget that while the light on the intercom says you are listening to the freq, you are not going to hear anything.
However, I can guarantee that when "The other day they were calling for an a/c on the 121.5 for many minutes" is encountered we deselect that radio on the intercom until we find that peace reigns.
I am sure that everyone else within 250nm (except the one you are calling) is doing the same.
Problem is that you do that for 10 minutes and for 5 of those minutes you are crossing with some airfirce base in Germany calling something else and then we have to get the ATIS and then we are 50nm south east of Paris and in range of the "Practice Pan brigade" and guess what, we end up flying from Nice to London trying to listen on 121.5 but finding that it is impossible due to the constant chatter from ground stations
I use "chatter" to include ACC's trying to contact silent aircraft, airfirce bases doing radio checks etc because it is a reason for deselecting 121.5 since when PNF (PM) the primary outside communication task is to monitor and respond to calls on the ACC/APP/TWR frequency. Monitoring 121.5 is secondary and can't be allowed to hamper the first.
Have you ever considered the posibility that they can't hear you on the ACC frequency because they are hearing transmissions from a ground station other than you on 121.5 and when you call on 121.5 this other ground station is blocking you?
What is the DOC of your 121.5 at say 40,000ft and how many other ground stations overlap that DOC - lots and lots if you are in central Europe - and most of them can not hear the other's transmissions and so don't know (or in the UK case 'care') if thay are blocking your transmissions.
So before you go blaming the aircrew, remember that we hear every idiotic waaaaaaaassssssssuuuuuuupppppppppp on 121.5 with hundreds of miles, we hear every ground station within a similar distance - but you don't and therefore are not best placed to decide if you transmission has nay chance of success.
There are also plenty of places in Europe where VHF coverage is poor - parts of Italy fro example - hard to believe that between Corsica and Rome the coverage at 300+ can often be quite poor.
No point in giving me the xxx123 we have called you several times. If I had heard you I would have responded!! We don't intentionally ignore direct clearances / short cuts!!
-----
On a side note - I never adjust the volume of the radio other than to make it comfortable i.e. I never turn it down fully. If I don't want to hear what is going on I will de-select it on the intercom. I have seen so many pilots turn down the volume and then forget that while the light on the intercom says you are listening to the freq, you are not going to hear anything.
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It is not just about listening out on the 121,5 but also about checking your position. If you cross a Fir boundry and you don't get handed over, doesn't it make sence to check?? (good sugestion by Nightstop!)
I know there is a lot of noise on the 121,5 and I also turn it down ocasionaly. But if things get quiet on the radio or I notice the reception of the controler is getting weaker, I check... I don't claim that it is not possible for me to find myself out of contact but I try to prevent it as much as I can...
)I know there is a lot of noise on the 121,5 and I also turn it down ocasionaly. But if things get quiet on the radio or I notice the reception of the controler is getting weaker, I check... I don't claim that it is not possible for me to find myself out of contact but I try to prevent it as much as I can...
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I think that we don't need selcal it is very simple-
If I have a known radio failure I will squawk 7600. If you get no response from me and you can still see my assigned code then I have not heard you calling (for whatever reason) or you can not hear my response.
Strange thing is that while I frequently hear an ACC trying to call an aircraft over and over and over, I never hear them say "if you read this transmission squawk ident"........which can save a lot of time wasting.
On the other hand as I said on a different topic I have experieced calling an ACC in Spain and receiving no response so one of us called on 121.5 while the other called on the acc frequency. Imgine my surprise when I was answered on 121.5 by a different controller at the ACC and could hear my colleague calling and calling in the background!!!!
I do always have the appropriate enroute high available which has frequencies whereby we could establish comms with someone at the acc but not necessarily the correct sector (Jeppesen). However, long gone are the days when the FIR boundary was the division between ACC's area of responsibility. these days in Europe it is simply a very rough guide.
I like the selcal idea (because we have it) however, can't see those that never fgly oceanic / remote being very enthusiastic about having it in Europe as a "back-up" when we have satphone, AFIS, CPDLC etc etc etc in most cockpits.
If I have a known radio failure I will squawk 7600. If you get no response from me and you can still see my assigned code then I have not heard you calling (for whatever reason) or you can not hear my response.
Strange thing is that while I frequently hear an ACC trying to call an aircraft over and over and over, I never hear them say "if you read this transmission squawk ident"........which can save a lot of time wasting.
On the other hand as I said on a different topic I have experieced calling an ACC in Spain and receiving no response so one of us called on 121.5 while the other called on the acc frequency. Imgine my surprise when I was answered on 121.5 by a different controller at the ACC and could hear my colleague calling and calling in the background!!!!
I do always have the appropriate enroute high available which has frequencies whereby we could establish comms with someone at the acc but not necessarily the correct sector (Jeppesen). However, long gone are the days when the FIR boundary was the division between ACC's area of responsibility. these days in Europe it is simply a very rough guide.
I like the selcal idea (because we have it) however, can't see those that never fgly oceanic / remote being very enthusiastic about having it in Europe as a "back-up" when we have satphone, AFIS, CPDLC etc etc etc in most cockpits.
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Originally Posted by DFC
However, long gone are the days when the FIR boundary was the division between ACC's area of responsibility. these days in Europe it is simply a very rough guide.
As for having charts out in the cruise - it always produced a wry smile for me when I saw the unspoken "what's the old git doing now" thought bubble. Old habits, eh?